An $0.02 worth

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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:25 am

^^^ I think Roy is just annoyed that Man U were beaten last night.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:28 am

^^^ Yup it was created very much tongue-in-cheek. But it has ended up with some really interesting posts - quite useful for any people new to scam-baiting.

What SlayerFaith says about taking down fake banks and forwarding on real bank info is also really really true, with fairly little effort and a lot of help from experienced people like SF, JustJay etc. it's amazing how easy it is to take down a website.

If only the abuse teams would act as quickly.....

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:58 am

Going back to Roy�s opening point, I agree that the amount of pain that can be inflicted on a lad increases the longer you bait them and that simple back and forth (10 minute) exchanges won�t ever be enough to paralyze a lad and make them give up scamming.

Equally, however, I don�t think that even the most spectacular of trophy baits, longest imaginable safari, or even a straight bait played out over many, many months could achieve that objective either. Somewhat to the contrary, it�s not difficult to imagine how a really long-running trophy bait (or expensive safari) could have the reverse effect and make the lad more desperate to run some quick �straight scams� just to turn a profit and pay the bills. In fact, trying to get an individual to give up scamming could be a little bit like focusing on the battle and forgetting about the war � certainly if a lad decides to stop, their encounter with the baiter will just be one of many factors influencing that decision, and there will always be many more new scammers to fill their place.

In that case, I guess my $0.02 is that even the newest of new newbies can help clog up the system just by getting lads to cut and paste opening replies. Is that going to change the overall returns to scamming and get the 419s to stop or even just one individual to stop? No. Is that the most effective way to waste a scammer�s time compared with other things a baiter can do long-term? Again, I think the answer is no, but it does help and is a good way to start. Whether a baiter�s goal is to frustrate a lad with inane questions and wasted trips to WU, to kill their fake bank site, to sponge up resources by receiving forged checks that are never going to be cashed, or even having them paint their body gold to reenact a scene from James Bond it�s all good.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:04 am

I do agree with Roy in fact to a certain extent. I had baits that didn't lead to anything but the scammer having to copy/paste scripts and send them to me. I am certain this did not keep him from scamming someone else. I highly doubt I even managed to waste a full 10 minutes of his time per day.

On the other hand, I also had baits where I ended up closing his bank accounts through (everyone's hero) Alan, or ended up killing his fake bank. I wasted lad's resources by having him call my expensive cell phone. I had a couple of mugus on the go, sometimes getting in touch with his contacts on another continent for maga that never delivered. I like to think that caused some friction between the original mugu and his partner-in-crime.

It really depends on the bait you are running. I am sure that lads baited by our Eater trinity (JJB, BW and YW) had very little time and resources left to scam someone else. I myself do not always manage to reach that comfort level where I think ' I highly doubt he has time or money left to scam someone else besides my character', but hey, all bits help. And if you do not try, you can be certain the scammer will be scamming someone else, right?

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:09 am

I think 10 minutes per day is easily enough to do the damage.

Don't think micro, think macro.

Yes, if you go hard and bait the guy for year and get him to go to Singapore you've probably done a lot more damage.

But realistically, that's 1 lad for a year... you've taken care of one. Great work, but what about all the others?

However, if every baiter is working on 10 minutes time wasting per day it only requires a few baiters to add up to a full day of work for the lad.

Whether we realise it or not, baiters work as a team. We all have a common goal and we're all working towards the same outcome. If enough baiters are wasting 10 minutes of a lad's time, then he will eventually have no more time for victims. I bait around 10-12 lads at a time. Some I spend more time on, others just 10 minutes of time wasting. If all other baiters are doing the same then there's a good proportion of lads out there who wasting up to half a day, if not a whole day, simply replying to baiters.

Not to mention the flow on effects of baiting: eg making a lad very suspicious and burning real victims because they asked too many questions etc.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:10 am

It's also quite possible that baiting is not the most efficient use of our time. If we all walked round the streets of our home towns wearing sandwich boards saying "Stop 419" and handing out educational flyers, we might have more impact. I don't know.

But educational efforts (ie addressing the demand side) have their place alongside baiting (attacking the supply).

Of course, wandering around in a sandwich board isn't half as much fun as baiting.... Wink

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:13 am

^^^ It probably is not more efficient because you'd only have a fraction of the people on here doing that. Therefore efficiency would drop substantially.

There's no proof at all (except for arrests and one or two exceptional cases) that baiting prevents scams from being carried.

All it is is a stop-gap measure. We stem the flow and slow down production. At the end of the day it is probably more a sport than a charitable thing. Most people here would not volunteer their time to sit and chat to unsuspecting people about 419, but they will happily spend the same amount of time baiting a lad to dance to Kylie with a snake around his belly. I know that applies to me.

Master Baiter Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 109

Red wrote:

Not to mention the flow on effects of baiting: eg making a lad very suspicious and burning real victims because they asked too many questions etc.

Plus denting their confidence when it turns out that several people have dropped them without reason.

Wright B Hindyou wrote:

It's also quite possible that baiting is not the most efficient use of our time. If we all walked round the streets of our home towns wearing sandwich boards saying "Stop 419" and handing out educational flyers, we might have more impact.

Given that the AFF / next of kin scam has been on the news, in papers, warnings on banking sites and such things for years... and yet the victim rate is still high, I'm not sure that it would be productive in the sense of people listening.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:26 am

Shutting a lad down full stop is nigh on impossible. But then this is the internet and there is only so much you can do online. Even if you were able to tie up a lad for 12 hours a day, there is still the possibility that he would be able to scam real victims, so the question about wether or not we can paralyse a lad is a loaded one.

That said, even 5 minutes of a baiter's time is worth it. All you have to remember is -
For every single second you tie up your lad, it is a second that he is not scamming a genuine victim.

So drop in the ocean maybe. Worthwhile? Definitely.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:22 am

Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz wrote:

I bet Roycropper is sitting there having a good old chuckle to himself.

The clue was in his final word "Discuss".

That's about right, PVJ, I said I was lighting the blue touchpaper and standing well back...

I agree with both sides of the argument, if that's possible. I just wondered what sort of debate it would cause if I poked you all with a stick, sorry if anyone was offended. I'm sure if it turned into a major argument that mods are watching, keys in hand.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:52 am

In line with the balanced nature of this thread, let me argue against my previous post.

If we became aware that our efforts had only a minimal impact at best, would we stop baiting?

Of course not. We know we are annoying, distracting and discombobulating numerous Lads, which makes us feel good because we are potentially saving real vics, plus we have a good time which makes us feel even better. Smile

Baiting Guru Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 5905

@ Losst Jedi

Looks like you cop acquaintance has basically answered his own question as to why baiters do not bother informing the police when they receive a scam Email. I mean what am I going to do? Ring the police up everytime I receive a scam Email

"Hello... yes it's me again..... yes I got another scam email... no I haven't lost any money to this guy... no I don't know his real name... no or his real address I'm afraid... His ISP points to Nigeria though so I think we got him cornered."

In regards to the original question though we have to think of the big picture as it regards to our web presence that is growing in stature everyday. The publicity that scambaiters create through their antics on this and similar sites acts as a warning against these scammers and presents it in a more interesting way than the dry informational sites; although they do have their merits too.

Furthermore from the baiting community certain trends appear that makes some scammers nervous about certain things that they might have not been weary of in the past. For example Gmail is seen as the baiters Email provider of choice and certain lads now refuse to work with people who have a Gmail account. Therefore they could lose a real victim who is communicating through Gmail because they feel as they sometimes put it themselves that 'Gmail is for jokers.'

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:51 pm

All of you should read the L0tt0 Lads massbaiting thread started by Gomer Pyle.

If you really want to give these lads some serious hurt, the way to go to really pile on the pressure is to bait 50 or more. There are ways and tools that make the job easier, and you'll still get the odd lad that's lots of fun to send to the ends of the earth.

We all want to shut them down, don't we? Then let's make the effort.

I think I've stuck my neck out tooo far already.

Cheers,
Fer-de-Lance

Master Baiter Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 139

I agree with OP. While every minute of every day the scammer is dealing with you is a minute that he isn't scamming someone else, your typical lad can do a lot of damage in the other minutes of the day. Truly wasting the scammers' time involves things more complex than an e-mail conversation. Filling out forms by hand, going to the WU office and waiting in line for an hour, answering question after question on , these are the things that a baiter can do to make a scammer unable to do little else with his day, not to mention wasting hours of cybercafe time. That's not to mention safaris, which waste weeks at a time and hundreds of dollars of the scammer's money.

But, it isn't as simple as OP makes it sound. It takes a few days or even weeks of the 10-minutes-a-day e-mail conversations before you get to the point where your lad is convinced enough he'll get paid that he will fill out forms or make a safari.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:07 pm

I tend to agree with your statement Roy.

However, I think that there is the slightest of chances that a lad may become more paranoid. And a lad may become more apt to drop real vics easier, as others stated.

I personally prefer doing lots of damage and making them think twice. It is my opinion that doing something like that would have the most effect. But that isn't for everyone.

It is also for fun. We do get a laugh and that is fine. So, even though it might be the most minor dent in their day, it is something. And it provides a good larf.

EDIT: jojobean wants to clarify that he is NOT downplaying the role of the straightbaiter. People inform me that I can come across as an arrogant arse and I don't want to do that. in this instance

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:29 pm

There's an unstated assumption in the original message that anyone who doesn't send their lad on a resource-sapping safari, or isn't tying their lad up in piles of bureaucratic form-filling and extra-caf� activities, isn't baiting properly. (Not my word, it's in the original message.)

That devalues the efforts of everyone except the trophy-hunters, and I could never agree with that.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:32 pm

Jojobean and Roy I agree, if I can make 1 lad think twice about every email he sends and worry about every answer he gets, like this is too easy or where is this leading to, then I have done my job right. That�s why I bait straight, no use of making them smarter, just make them insecure and they might drop a victim that is doing too difficult. Bait them twice or more just to work their mind a bit. In the end they don�t get the money and have no clue what went wrong and where, but their tactic hasn�t worked and that should make them wonder.
My time waste is not really a problem for the lad, maybe a grand total of 20 minutes a week, but it slows him down and it keeps his mind busy when he could be mass mailing instead. If I can make him give me a real bank account, I make some more progress, if he searches for me online a tad more time wasted, if he calls me, he lost a dime or more, if his helper is searching for me in London or Amsterdam he looses money. That�s all not too much, but enough to wear him down a little bit.
I think that mass baits can really take all of his time as the baiters can be easier to work then the real victims and all offers the same �real� world to him so he has to believe that it is true.
I am sure that two hundred organized baiters can break one scammer�s bank, his mind and wear him out until he doesn�t want to try it anymore. And that by just straight baiting him and taking 33 hours a week from him without any income.(200 x 10 = 2000 minutes or 33 hours) Wink

Until I have a working email addy where I can sent my scammers first email knowing that he will be shut down in a week, all I can do is bug the %$#%$ out of him and waste a bit of his time and money.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:57 pm

Quote:

an unstated assumption in the original message

It doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it, it's a point of view for debate.

I just chucked the smoke grenade in and shut the door behind myself, have fun!

I reckon myself that we must put plenty of lads off by making them realize it's not as easy as they have been led to believe by their mates and the media. especially after a few hours in the cafe on ITV5. Smile

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

You can't stop lads from scamming by baiting. You can only slow them down.

You can't save victims from scamming by baiting. You can only hope that fewer victims are contacted by scammers due to baiting.

On a macro scale, baiting does more good when newspapers and t.v. stations publicize what we do so that people pay attention to the fact that there are scams out there (amazingly, many people still don't realize that).

On a micro scale, baiting, when you boil down to it, is more about the baiter getting satisfaction from abusing the lad(s) and hoping to cause mental anguish to those lads who are on the receiving end.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:04 pm

Sending them on safari is really nice but you can tell that the lad is still into scamming after multiple safaris. Does it mean that it does not work? You tell me. Does it make them go back to school, learn a trade, get an H-1 visa and do real work? Does getting them arrested work? Will 4 hours in a police station open their eyes to their evil ways and cleanse their hearts of all unrighteousnesses? I believe it changes the lad just as much as the four cleansing rituals that I had one lad perform. Did I have the lad come clean? No, I only had a wet lad with a flux capacitor on his head. I do know that revisitism occurs everywhere. I did a citizen's arrest on three youth picking on my car at work. I felt that it was my duty as a citizen. I had a choice between getting my car parts back and letting them go or going the full monty. My $500 worth of parts were eventually lost in the evidence locker downtown and the perps were back out on the street in 4 hours. The only reason they were held that long was that our security staff said that they would wait three hours before requesting transport by the city police. I've had lads holding signs at airports longer than that. I heard from our security that the boys that I arrested are still at it.

The trophy photo, the safari, the death threats, the insults, the badge, the bank accounts and the webpage shut downs are all nice but saving one victim from losing their life savings is what its all about. Just think of the impact on the person's life. If straight baiting 5 minutes a day causes a lad to twig on a real victim, we have won.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:44 pm

I think the "well... it's better than nothing" approach that a lot of people have mentioned is the ultimate justification for what we do.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:42 pm

I've never managed to get a lad on safari, alas, and I don't know that I've ever managed to get a lad to quit the profession. (Very unlikely, frankly.) But I've caused a lot of grief and cost some of them a lot of money, and I take huge satisfaction in that. I think keeping a lad twisting in the wind for months is hugely demoralizing for them and simply has to affect the way they deal with real victims (I'm strictly a straight baiter now.)

The quote in my sig from the lad I "ruined" is my favorite trophy. It doesn't begin to match some of the truly spectacular gems that other baiters have posted, but I just love knowing that I really did destroy this lad by making him borrow money from everyone he knew until he simply couldn't get another kobo from friends or family and had to throw in the towel. And all I did was subject him to the very common church form modality: print out a long PDF questionnaire, fill it out by hand, scan each page as a jpeg, and return them. Since he kept making mistakes he had to do it over and over if he wanted to be appointed as the local agent and collect the first payment. All I did to him was what he was trying to do to his victims -- hook him, make him believe the story, and spend everything he had and everything he could borrow. The only difference is that I didn't ask for the money myself, I was happy for him to spend it at the Internet cafe. Either way, he was bankrupted in his quest to steal the church's money and suffered a lot as a result.

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:06 am

We also have family and friends who I'm sure have been made more aware of these scams. I'm sure someone here would have saved a family member simply by being a baiter. Even if they didn't know it.

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:44 pm

I agree with the OP, in fact, that is my aim when scambaiting.

However, it isn't that easy. You have to build up trust before you can use scambaiting to paralyse their operation, which can take months. And in those months you will only be wasting 10 minutes of their time. Waste any more and they'll move on. People shouldn't think that they are doing something wrong when after a month their bait is not safaring or filling out forms, if they are still being contacted then they are doing it right.

My aim is to get an 3d in the singapore thread. He completely trusts the characters, his life is the bait. That is what we should be aiming for, make the lad's life revolve around our stories. Then their operation is paralysed.

Of course, arrests are prefered, but they are hard to organise. Especially for the African based scammers.

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:49 pm

A long time ago (1979) I left the military & rented a room in a large house which had a large communal lounge & kitchen.
The owner of the house was letting a white South African (conman) stay there (Mr x). Mr x was running business courses to sell his product & was getting professional people to pay �20,000 a time to have the rights to sell in a particular area.
I used to sit in the lounge while Mr x spun yarns of derring do to his 'apprentices' promising them the world if they had enough urge to succeed.
On two occassions I approached the victims & said that I thought they were being conned, but instead of being grateful they were very angry with me, they were all better educated & had better jobs than me too.
I left the house & bought one of my own, then one day severel months later I bought a local paper & Mr x was on the front page. Apparently he had narrowly escaped arrest & had fled to America, hotly persued by Interpol.
Needless to say that all those smart people had lost their money, but I had gained a lot in seeing first hand the psychology involved.

The human mind is very good at being optimistic & blocking out unpalatable truths.
At the moment I just do low level time wasting of the mugus, I don't want to really wind them up until I am better satisfied with my internet security, I have joined this site to learn the finer arts of this baiting.

I have just finished reading the 'third anniversary safari', wonderful stuff & I salute your efforts, I did'nt feel sorry for the mugu once so I guess I pass that test.
Regards
SevenStars