Chance for an arrest??

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Master Baiter Joined: 11 Nov 2006 Posts: 199

I work check mule scams. I was UPSed a check the other day that the tracking number shows was sent from like 60 miles from me....

I am dropping the bait, but since one of the scammers in local does any one think that it is worht while to contact the police?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:48 pm

Are you sure it's from the scammer and not a mule? Lad can use innocent third party as mules to send out fake checks. You can try to report it to the police to see what happens. It will most likely depend on the law of your state. The police can't do much if they know you are actually baiting the scammers (entrapment).

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:49 pm

You can go to the police but you should be aware that at this point you're in possesion of a stolen check or a forged check.
If you claim that you've received it legally, you'll have to provide some evidence that you don't have.
They're not going to get the check, thank you, let you go and start working on it.
If you file for fraud, eventually, you'll have to prove that you received the check in good faith and that you're, somehow, entitled to receive it.
I wouldn't go to the police without checking with a lawyer first.

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:12 am

Baiting is not entrapment as long as you didn't send out the email first. And as long as you didn't at any time coerce him into doing what he did.

And possession of a fake check is not a crime. Trying to cash it or pass it is a crime. At least in the US. (disclaimer IANAL) Just like receiving a fake dollar bill. You see it is fake and turn it into the police. They aren't going to arrest you for having it, only if you try to spend it.

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:20 pm

Mike^^^

Put the check in your scrapbook of 'Treasured Mugu Memories'..And leave the cops out of it.

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:03 pm

The chances of the police bothering to charge you if you come in with a few printed emails showing how you got the check and turn it in all nice and proper without trying to cash it are pretty slim. They have to be able to prove some sort of intent to make it stick in court, at least in most states. For example, here's NY state law.

Quote:

PL 170.20 Criminal possession of a forged instrument in the third degree: A person is guilty of criminal possession of a forged instrument in the third degree when, with knowledge that it is forged and with intent to defraud, deceive or injure another, he utters or possesses a forged instrument.

You can probably do a quick google and see how your state's laws are written.

I recall someone (a baiter) I spoke to directly claiming they were hassled a bit by their local sheriff when they attempted to turn in a fake check from a bait. He assumed (for some reason) these two college kids were trying out their own handiwork on the police before trying to cash it. Reading between the lines, I suspect they may have been a bit smart-alecky to him and only taken the check on the first visit, however. When they showed the emails from the bait, the sheriff had to back off.

I doubt many jurisdictions are going to want to waste their time and taxpayer dollar on you if you turn it in. I tell a lot of real victims of fake check scams to turn in the check to the police/postmaster each week. Not a single one of them has ever come back to me and said, "You know, the police want to arrest me for turning in that check!" The only fake check victims I'm aware of that had a problem were ones who had actually cashed the check. That's a whole other ball of yarn.

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:46 am

Hi mrsbean^^

There are of course many sad instances of trusting scam victims who cash the fake over-draft and eventually wind up in trouble with their bank over it all. Not to mention the money they lost.

But please do not be deluded into thinking of turning it all over to the cops--at least here in the colonies. It could very well be a case of the cure worse than the ailment.

Cashing a forged instrument at a bank could be construed and interpreted in this sort of scam as an honest mistake, nice victims who had no clue... but a misdemeanor at the least.

However, presenting all this to the cops is also technically an admission of a crime--gullibility no excuse--and there's always some late-20s young prosecutor looking for her/his first felony conviction. And cashing a fake lad check could indeed be a felony---a far more serious crime.

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:39 pm

Did you miss the last two sentences of my post? I did specify that there is a difference between cashing a check and simply turning in a received check to the proper authorities.

Quote:

The only fake check victims I'm aware of that had a problem were ones who had actually cashed the check. That's a whole other ball of yarn.

I volunteer on an anti-fraud site geared toward victims, so I field lots of questions from people in the States who get fake checks. I've spoken to, at a lowball estimate, at least 80 fake check victims over the past year who turned in their UNCASHED fake check to the local police and/or postmaster. And I'm just counting ones I've emailed or exchanged messages with, not the site at large. Not a one of them that I'm aware of has been hassled by the police, postal inspector or the DA. Since I heard from most of them after they turned it in, I don't think they're all currently in a secret underground bunker awaiting execution for turning it in. That's my personal experience, so take it for what it's worth.

I always tell them to take anything that arrived with the check, envelpes, boxes, any letters that accompanied the check, printouts of the emails, if any, and keep the original emails in case the police want to see headers. There's typically a report filed, the check is received, tagged and bagged, and that's it. Generally, I steer them to the postal inspector as a matter of preference, because I know it's going to be mostly a matter of paperwork and the more apathetic police departments are likely to steer them there anyway.

I've spoken to one baiter (not one here) who claimed the sheriff gave them a hard time and tried to make out like these two smart alecky college kids obviously had done the fake check on their own printer and were making a show of turning it in to find out how good their work was. I suspect, reading between the lines of the acount, that the only reason the sheriff did so is because 1) they only brought in the fake check, no emails or mailing materials to support their story and 2) they mouthed off to the sheriff in the first place when he questioned them about where they got it. They were not charged, they simply had to bring in and show the emails that proved they had gotten the check mailed to them. On the other hand, I know a few baiters who have standing arrangements with a particular local LEO to turn in their baited fake checks.

By contrast, I've spoken to probably a couple dozen victims in the States who have been charged or otherwise hassled by the bank. Some have been terminated as customers, even, for committing the secondary crime of not having a big bank balance and therefore not being profitable enough. But the important distinction here is that they actually cashed the check and generally there is the additional circumstance that they withdrew the money. Meaning the "victim" of the crime (the bank, in this case) didn't have far to leap to imagine intent, and actually had a legitimate claim that the fake check had cost them something, even if only time and employee resources. In a few cases, the victims had criminal records already, which made the bank a lot less forgiving, and/or had previous financial difficulty of some sort with the bank.

I wouldn't suggest walking in to your local bank to turn in a known fake check, but I've never had a baiter or victim tell me they had a problem when they presented the check and minimal evidence that they didn't create it themselves to the postal inspector or the local police.

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:34 am

hi mrsbean^^

Not in disagreement with you..We're both in the same war.

As I have posted here before, see www.bustedupcowgirl.com It's a great Lad-check website.

Here in the USA, it all depends on what the bank affiliate is. If the bank is FDIC-insured, that means that The Feds will investigate any and all crimes. If it is the other--A Credit Union bank--it is merely a crime investigated by state/local authorities.

To give an example--cash a forged check at an FDIC bank--you could get up to 10 yrs in a Federal prison and a fine way more than the check.. Do it at a CU bank and you could be facing probation or maybe a year in the Hotel Graybars, if any prosecution....The lads do not care, in any event.

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:42 am

I save what checks I've gotten, but I cut them in half Idea

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:06 am

Well since the OP is not going to try and cash the check, there is probably not much to worry about. If he turns it in to LE they will be more then likely obligated to take action which means a crime report will be taken. If it can be followed up it will, if not the case will be suspended.

You don�t have to try to cash a fake check for it to be considered a crime. Possession of a forged check (in my state at least) IS a crime if it is possessed with intent to defraud. As mrsbean pointed out, knowledge and intent must also be present when passing the check, so I don�t understand why victims have been charged.

DrWho is right about the entrapment issue with one exception. Entrapment is only an issue when LE, a person working for, or under the direction of LE is involved. A regular citizen cannot entrap anyone without the help of a cop.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:24 am

TFG^

Altruism is a good thing indeed.

Contacting the authorities in person with a forged document--in YOUR possession--is indeed a noble effort in fighting this particular crime that The Lads use often. But you need to think twice on it.

I myself contact US-LE whenever given the op when the rascals give me a valid American venue. But I do it all anonymously via the computer...I'm not about to just walk in the cop-shop and say 'here's a crime and some evidence'..Some cop can say--put the cuffs on until we sort it out..

Having never been arrested in over 50 years, I'm not going to fill out any official scam report with MY name attached to it. Neither should you.

cheerz---jervis tetch /mad hatter

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:56 am

You�re not going to get arrested for reporting a crime. Since you got them by baiting, there is not intent to defraud (this is the law in my state at least). The worse thing that will happen is you will get a strange look from the cop. I was not suggesting that baiters should turn these checks in. Not because the baiter can be arrested but it just waste LE time as nothing can usually be done.

I know some baiters have their own PO boxes. The only benefit to turning checks in to LE is that if you ever have a check confiscated you could prove you had no intent to defraud. There would be a record of you turning checks you received in. Before any baiter turns a check in, he or she should check their local law and make sure that mere possession of a fake or forged check in not a crime. This should probably be done before baiting check mules.

When I first started baiting I was still a cop. I took the checks in and logged them into evidence myself to be destroyed. I guess I could have arrested myself but I knew I was innocent even though that�s what they all say. The next time I receive a check I will see if I can get my wife to put the cuffs on me. Maybe I can get her to do it while wearing a sexy nurse outfit. Wish me luck.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:29 am

Ghost^

So you're a former LEO as you say.

If true,--and no proof on it for obvious reasons, I'll take your say-so on it. An honorable profession in most countries. In W. Africa and Mexico the bribe to the cop is the usual way things are done.

But if in your LE career you gathered anything, it should be that people know that cops the world-over are not to be trusted. Cover Your Ass is the guiding tenet of the thin blue line. Police officers lie and frame people, and unduly arrest helpful citizens too. I am not however getting into an anti-cop dogfight here, just pointing out the obvious.

There is absolutely NO way you could ever convince me to blithely walk into a police station in this regard and have my name attached to some 419 crime and not think that the police won't also file my name on it too. Only an idiot would do that, and cops love idiots.

When I do contact police agencies to notify them of 419 scams as they apply to the USA, I'm not so stupid as to provide them with my real name and location. Yes they could conceivably trace my headers, but then they suddenly become the jerks too.....Makes me ponder why the hell I even try to help, as jaded as I am, but I still do.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:54 am

Jervis:

I am a former prosecutor. I cannot imagine that you would get charged for this. If the OP walked into my office back when I was doing that with the check and the e-mails I would not charge them. Now the person that is 60 miles from the OP would have to be investigated. I am not up on the check mule scam so I don't know if the person that sent the check to the OP is an innocent bystander or not... The other issue with turning in the check is what can they do? I mean if the check came from Nigeria or wherever your local LEO can't do a thing. Heck the Postal Inspector or FBI probably can't do much.

Now as for your rant against police officers in general, our town just had the second one killed in the line of duty in a year this past week, so please forgive me for now placing you on my internal ignore list.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:55 am

Oh and Ghost, thanks for your willingness to serve and protect. There are some of us that still appreciate that. Thanks for coming home alive at the end of your shift.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:25 am

@Ghost,
I bet there is someone here that could help with finding a sexy nurse outfit. Laughing

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:23 pm

Jervis Tetch wrote:

I am not however getting into an anti-cop dogfight here

Then don't post inflammatory comments without substantiation.

Please allow me to remind you that this is 419eater.com. On this forum, law enforcement is an ally. LEO are members of this forum, and assist us in transmitting details of criminal behaviour to local law enforcement agencies.

@Ghost:

I echo The Man's comments. Thank you for your service, and for keeping yourself safe.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:10 pm

As much as I hate to admit it, I could see someone walking into the police station with a fake cheque and having some sort of negative experience... when the wrong cop was at the desk, a few minutes after being chewed out by the staff sergeant ... stranger things have happened. I would imagine that everything would eventually be sorted out, but this might well be after some interrogation or a brief detention who knows. In general the police would probably be thankful (though powerless to act) for the tip and I don't think any real trouble would ensue 99 times out of 100. Policemen are only human and are subject to all the same stresses, distractions and limitations as everyone else. In my line of work I have met more than a few that have been known to allow personal feelings or circumstances affect their application of the law. Dealing with the police is never 100%.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:39 pm

General:

I can understand that fear, especially if you just walk in out of the blue to the front desk. Most cities of any size, however, have a unit or officer devoted just to computer related things. Going after sexual predators, getting evidence off a hard drive, that sort of thing. That is the person I would want to talk to if I had to turn something like this in. It takes a little more effort than just flaging a patrol car down on the street to report this kind of thing.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:23 pm

@Jervis,

you said:

Quote:

Only an idiot would do that, and cops love idiots

.

thats because they rarely get a chance to talk to the smart ones.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:09 am

To all the above to me^^

I guess I'm too jaded. I remember Bull Connor from Birmingham. Frank Rizzo. Antoinette Frank. Mark Fuhrmann. Many more. If I offended I have no intention of doing so. I truly seek the truth. The facts are there.

Yes--the bad apples in the barrel. The way I suppose decent hardworking honest Nigerians feel about 419ers.

I have never been victimized by The lads---but I have had money stolen by me from US police. Been framed by them too on tickets. Pick a yellow NYC cab, any cab, and write the ticket for 'michegas'. Common theme in the 1970s. And for the record--never arrested in my life. I never even tore off those 'mattress warning' labels, under penalty of law....

Later on they stole more from me in a diff venue. It still leaves me mad. I spent over $6000 to fight them legally to recover appx $35K and learned it would cost me almost $25K to do it..The math is evident. This too why most victims of 419 have to give up in the fight.

Anyone want to put me on their s**tlist, go ahead. I am not anti-cop. It's been over 13 years since the cops stole my money, but still I empathize with financial victims. The sense of being stabbed in the heart never goes away, as well as basic trust. Happy to provide the details via PM.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:00 am

The Man^^

Most posters here might not be aware that in the USA a 'prosecutor' has the ability to bring up charges on anybody for anything--and even if it's a frame-up, they cannot be held liable financially nor legally for destroying the life of anyone they deem guilty. Just to make that clear. Reference Mike Nifong recently.

You being an ex-ADA-prosecutor, and into 419 scambaiting, I look forward to your posts.

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:01 pm

End of this issue by me. Hopefully you will never have money stolen from you by 'the badge' either.

My intent here was never to antagonize nor dog-fight with any poster..Not my style.. But I stand by my words. End transmission.