Ethics

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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:17 pm

Nurse Nasty wrote:

....or wanked a bull..

I'd forgotten about that bait. Must go and review seach is my friend Laughing

luckybugger wrote:

blah blah blather and balderdash

How many rolly eyes am I allowed to use in this instance? I'm new here and I'm not quite sure.

@chaos, Cherrie wil plug you into a mentor shortly. In the meantime, read a few of the stickies about baiting safely etc if you haven't already and just reply to one or two of the most recent surplus letters. Once word gets out among lads that you exist, you will never be lacking lad spam in your baiting boxes again Smile

Happy baiting!

Not quite a Newb Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 31

I am very open for ideas. I signed up in the mentor thread, yet noone has been assigned to me. Guess they are in short supply Razz

Anyways, I could use a few tips (I have read as many stickies I can find, though I may not be able to remember everything).

1) Should I go to the surplus scam letter forum, and send emails to 10, 50 or 100 of them? I have no idea what the rate of success is.

2) When I offer them a 'job' (like, 'I need pictures of every god damn t-shirt in your area') should I mention how much I will pay for each picture from the start or not? I mean, I could imagine scaring some of them away by acting too eager. On the other hand, if they get promised a generous reward they might be more interested.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:23 pm

Success rate depends on what kind of bait you are using. If it is simple and not too outlandish, then it will be decent. I am working on a bait now that has had more than 10,000 emails sent out and only one of those looks like he will move.

I usually include in my email how much the guy who did it last year got paid. Laughing

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

Mentors take about 7-10 days to be assigned. One reason is that we like to make sure the baiter will stick around beyond that first day or two of wonder and excitement. Baiting, while not a job, is like a job in the sense that it takes effort, thought and commitment. Some can't hack the time issues or get discouraged when they don't get immediate trophies.

The response rate on the surplus letters is pretty good usually (unless the box has gone bad) and you'll have no end of scammers to pick from in that forum.

As for being too eager, you're right on the money. Get your lad on the hook securely before you start having them jump through hoops. Good luck.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:29 pm

Reading other members baits is the best learning tool there is. As long as you don't do anything illegal, you are pretty clear on the ethics front. The most important thing you need to know is, not to give out any information about yourself.

When I first started I thought I was going head to head with some very intelligent and dangerous criminal masterminds, one slip up and I was dead. It didn't take me long to figure out that lads are as thick as poo, and the dangerous criminal masterminds are all here! Laughing

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

@LuckyBugger

Before you start screaming 'Jackboot Evil Mods' I'd suggest you go back and read my replies.

This bit:

I wrote:

Rolly-eyed amusement? Certainly.
Sarcasm? Most likely.
No hostility, though.

Was only in response to this bit:

chaos wrote:

TSnerd wrote:

Lastly, thank you for succinctly outlining exactly what types of comments you're looking for, and which you don't want.

No, that was not what I did. At least not what I meant to do. I can accept if people think that getting innocent third parties to pose on pornographic pictures is crossing a line. The scammers might exploid people to get what I ask for, and my concern is: is there a greater risk of hurting innocent third parties when asking for porn, than when asking for carvings of a dog and a cat?

Quote:

That is very refreshing; most members, when asking for advice or help, don't do that. This ultimately leads to comments like, "Porn is disgusting and the work of Satan!"....even in threads that don't involve porn.

Well done.

I sense a certain degree of hostility. Why?

Which was in response only to this bit, (which Chaos understood to be the case, too, given that he only quoted that particular portion):

Chaos wrote:

I don't want to hear stuff like 'porn is disgusting and the work of satan!', or any other crap like that. I don't care what you think of porn, I do however care what you think of the ethics of baiting.

I am fully entitled to find requests for help, but with stipulations, amusing.
I am furthermore entitled to reply sarcastically to things like that.
I would also do the same thing to somebody who used exclamation marks in conjunction with 'please' or 'thank you'.

LuckyBugger wrote:

I think I am now banned from the site - BUT there are others!!!!!!!!

Why would you be banned for opening your mouth and posting inept shitstirring nonsense?

I suggest that you try harder. Rolling Eyes

Not quite a Newb Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 31

windypops wrote:

As long as you don't do anything illegal, you are pretty clear on the ethics front.

This is another thing I have been wondering about.

I have understood that you guys do not support "cash baits" due to, and I quote, "the possible legal implications involved". However, there is no problem in asking the lad to do some work and promising him that you will pay him.

Now, in my mind work = cash, and I cannot comprehend how one of them could be illegal while the other one is okay.

Please note that I am NOT trying to alter the rules, nor would I even think about trying to get cash from a scammer. I am just trying to understand what is legal and what is not. In both scenarios you are lying to him. Not that I feel sorry for them... at all.

419Eater Admin Joined: 30 Sep 2003 Posts: 7469

If a THIEF contacts me, with the sole aim of STEALING as much money from me as he possibly can, then he deserves everything he gets.

If a scammer tells me he is an artist/musician/actor (delete as applicable) and then gets a third party to do the work for him, it is the scammer's responsibility to pay that person, not mine.

If the scammer told the artist, "Hey I'm scamming this guy and once he pays up I will share the loot with you" then the artist deserves what he gets too.

If the scammer lies to the artist and tells him "I will pay you later", hopefully the scammer will either have to pay the artist of of his own pocket when he doesn't manage to STEAL my money, or the artist will get payment out of the scammer in the form of a good beating. That's a win-win situation as far as I'm concerned (though I woudl NOT condone having a scammer VERY seriously hurt or killed I hasten to add!).

The advice you have been given previously is good, if you feel uncomfortable with the thought of doing something, then don't do it.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:54 pm

It's perfectly legal to get your lad to spend cash on his scam but in some places and situations, the physical reception of money might have legal implications. To my knowledge there is no legal comeback if a lad is spending money on trying to scam you.

Morally, I have a problem with neither and when I first joined this site a few years ago, I stated that I didn't see it as being immoral as long as any received money went to charity.
But that's not the way things work now here at the Eater. So I adhere to the rules.

As for the truth issue, baiting itself could be looked at as lying - you're telling someone you're somebody you're not, replying to letters with no intention of paying up. Morally, you have to look at the wider picture. Getting the scammer to spend his money also has to be taken in a wider context. I look at it this way:
The more money I can get a scammer to spend, the less resources he will have to spend on scamming another (possibly innocent and naive) victim.

419Eater Admin Joined: 30 Sep 2003 Posts: 7469

Slightlyoutofit wrote:

The more money I can get a scammer to spend, the less resources he will have to spend on scamming another (possibly innocent and naive) victim.

Here here!

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:10 pm

I think the chaos question was about the difference between receiving cash and receiving art. I don't think he was against the art bait, just curious as to how they are different. I personally don't know how to answer that.

419Eater Admin Joined: 30 Sep 2003 Posts: 7469

Well for me, morally there is no difference between receiving cash and receiving artwork. What I object about receiving cash is that it is far more dangerous to do so.

Having artwork sent to a safe address is - dare I say - fairly easy. Having a lad send cash is another matter. For example, in the case of getting lads to W.U. you money, you either have to collect the cash using your real details (VERY not recommended) or walk into a Western Union office with fake identification (again VERY not recommended).

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:21 pm

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. The whole of the baiting/scamming world revolves around money at nearly every point and if we decided that we couldn't touch something because it was related to cash in some way, we wouldn't be able to bait.

You could say that the baiter is receiving money in the form of art, but then couldn't you also say that the baiter is receiving money in the form of emails too? After all, the lad has to spend money on his internet connection. He's probably spent money on getting his scam together too.
Does this mean that we shouldn't bait? Of course not!! But by baiting you're costing your lad money somewhere along the line wether you like it or not, wether you agree with it or not. Chaos needs to decide wether he sees this as morally wrong himself. But his answer will only be pertinent to himself as an individual as we all have different codes of morality.

Maybe trophies are the lesser of two evils, but nobody is forcing your lad to give you a trophy, just as nobody forced him to try to scam you in the first place.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:24 pm

The bottom line is, your lad can walk away any time he likes.

@Shiver, Just face it, you are a very bad man. Laughing

419Eater Admin Joined: 30 Sep 2003 Posts: 7469

I should also add that with cash baiting, you never know where your scammer's money is coming from. It could be money scammed from a real victim, or even (as has happened before) money sent via Western Union BY a real victim, told to do so by a scammer telling teh victim he/she is paying Mr. X for fees. It's just not worth the risk, and there are far better ways to screw with your scammer than taking a few dollars off him Smile

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:35 pm

@ luckybugger

Things a little slow at your local hangout?

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:45 pm

Shiver wrote:

you never know where your scammer's money is coming from. It could be money scammed from a real victim,

That�s exactly my concern too, when it comes to cash baiting. Because no matter what, even if the money doesn�t come directly from a victim, you can be pretty sure, that the money he sends wasn�t earned with honest work. And I sure as hell wouldn�t want a penny of his scammed money. Wouldn�t make me someone better than the scum, that the lads are.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:52 pm

If I remember rightly, the art work received so far was an example piece to show how talented the artist was, and would be judged on it's quality as to whether a payment would be made or not.

It's hardly Shivers fault if none of the artwork he's received so far has been acceptable, either turning out to be below par, or damaged in transit. Surely it's the fault of who ever posted it.

To the OP, if you aren't comfortable then don't do it (and don't use your own company and name obviously).

Better, as already stated to start off easy, do a bit of straight baiting, maybe as an elderly woman, the sole guardian of a very sick child who needs all their cash for medicine. See how ethical your pet turns out to be and you may find your doubts fade, if not try other baits.

And deffo read around here a bit more if you want to get some really off the wall trophies or safaris then learn from the best.

EDIT: Artists paid by scammers not only takes money from scammers but distributes it to the local honest citizens, so is an added bonus IMO.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 31

chris_walken wrote:

I think the chaos question was about the difference between receiving cash and receiving art.

Exactly.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:56 pm

Another "ethics" thread? TSnerd hit the nail on the head.

Quote:

If you have doubts, don't do it.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 31

Orinoco! wrote:

, do a bit of straight baiting, maybe as an elderly woman, the sole guardian of a very sick child who needs all their cash for medicine. See how ethical your pet turns out to be and you may find your doubts fade, if not try other baits.

Oh don't get me wrong. I do not worry about the scammers. I worry about the women they might exploid to deliver what I ask for.

Anyways, I have sent my first email to a lad, trying to turn my first bait into a safari.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm

If you are worried then don't do it then. Alternative is to insist on male actors only, and they must be big stapping blokes who can't have been forced in to it. Sounds better to leave it tho.

If you are serious about safaris, check out YeaWhatevers (there are other great ones, but hes posted 2 posts up so is easy to find), just click on some of the links in his sig Smile

hours of entertainment, and I'm sure you'll get some ideas.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:08 pm

You might worry about your lad exploiting other people and that's maybe why you should start off slowly. You see, once you gain experience, you may be able to control your lad - you may decide what he does or doesn't do. You can tie him up so that he's not causing harm to others, or at least to not as many.

Remember that your lad is trying to exploit people already. By taking up his time and controlling him, he may not be causing harm to more innocent victims.

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:15 pm

IBTL

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:33 pm

I too started an ethics and morality thread when I first joined, and I still have my own personal ethics, but having participated in various mass baits against scammers targetting charities for sick children, my threshold is not what it was.

This place has many rules and guidelines of an ethical nature relating not only to cash baiting - the third party rule and not causing harm to animals. However, if you cause a scammer to have say some celebratory meal as an example, and they were to kill a goat in a manner you found disturbing - is that your fault ? No, you created the meal , and they used their usual method to kill the animal. You didn't directly cause them to kill it in the way they did - they just did what they normally do.

The same applies to obtaining artwork or pictures. You ask for something which is ethically acceptable. If they obtain it in a an unethical manner that is not your fault, that is clearly what they do, day in and day out whether you bait them or not.

That's my own personal view.