Why aren't the forums behind login / password?

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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:06 am

Nick L Cadmium wrote:

I can see both sides of the argument, and I tend to agree more with the open policy.

BUT.......It would be a bit of a choker if of the Sick Children thread found out what was going on. Is it possible to mask a whole thread like this until the bait is over? Maybe it could require mod permission, so it gets vetted first.

IN MY VIEW THE NOMA THREAD SHOULD NOT ONLY BE PUBLICALLY ACCESSIBLE, BUT WE SHOULD SHOUT THAT IT IS A SCAM FROM THE ROOFTOPS.

Frankly, if you hide what is happening here, you are allowing this bastard to scam money away from the legitimate charities. Sod the bait! This scam needs to be unsuccessful and the best way to do this is through publicity. What can he do if he finds out? He either carries on in the hope that he gets rich before the publicity becomes widespread or he abandons the scam. If he becomes suspicious of all letters coming in, then many potential victims will become aware that something is not right.

Please go and look at your posts in the thread and remove your own e-mail addies and names used so that he is not able to recognise you. That way he will continue to waste time on you.

Baiting Guru Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 11857 Location: UK

Personally, I am not worried about a lad finding my particular baits on eater, it has never happened before, I always xxxxx out most of my baiting character names anyway, a lot of others use xxxxx, leet characters or the mask function to hide their baiting names and the names of their lads, so by doing that, how is a victim going to see it if they do a Google search after receiving an email, for example, if they are doing a search for Mr Dodgy Badlad, they wont get search results for Mr D0XXX B@dlAd or or Mr Dxxxxx Dxxxxx or MR D B, I just can't see the benefit of having certain forums open to the public, especially the main scambaiting forum where are lot of lad names are obfuscated, but it's perfectly understandable having forums like fake banks and surplus letters open to the public, as nothing is hidden or obfuscated in those forums.

On the point of posting baits, the baits I do post, I like to post in running, it's a lot easier, rather than having to post several hundred emails between myself and laddy all posted at once, it also makes it a bloody long read, and I know I couldn't be bothered reading a long post like that now.

@ Leccy. very funny, you should be on the <strike>gallows</strike> stage Very Happy

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:08 am

It boils down to whether you view baiting as a personal vendetta or whether you do it as a contribution to the common good. I know that creative/sophisticated baiting gives a real sense of achievement. intellectual stimulation, amusement and even 'ownership' but surely the whole point of this website, including the Forum, is Public Awareness? We can have our esoteric little in-jokes, disuss the various modalities, give each other kudos for a successful bait well executed but at the end of the day the Greater Good is for potential and current victims to have a resource to refer to and learn how the scammers operate?

It only takes a little time and effort to mask the important details, eg, names and email addys and it's not obligatory to publish your work anyway although it's tempting especially if a new modality has been successful.

Unless and until we suddenly discover a major infiltration of lads here then the occasional bright spark in Lagos who does some Googling and finds us is an occupational hazard and it's not worth locking away the whole forum.

Baiting Guru Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 11857 Location: UK

Gnasher wrote:

It only takes a little time and effort to 'mask' the important details, eg, names and email addys

That's one of my points about having the forums open and searchable, what's the point in potential victims being able to do a search on Google that will direct them to posts on the open forums, if all names and addies (baiter and lad) are masked or xxxxx out, potential victims wont get the search results to see them on eater, and I didn't suggest locking away the whole forum!

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:20 am

Scam Patroller wrote:

what's the point in people being able to Google the open forums if all names and addies are masked or xxxxx out

I think the new approach gives all posters a choice. Those that want to do their bit towards educating the populace and attracting new members can do so, and if they prefer to hide names they can do that instead. The old approach did not give anyone a choice.

If you had asked me about this subject a week ago, my answer would have been "Hide more forums" and the reason would have been "Because we have always done that". Now that I've listened to the arguments, I agree with the new policy of openness. I think this thread has been very useful!

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:35 am

Specific lad names and addys are almost irrelevant in this context. If people can come here and read about the general principles of scamming and how the lads operate it's all good. You could argue that if a curious or suspicious potential victim came and searched for Lad A and didn't find his exact name/addy the vic might think "Oh, that's OK then, my Lad B is legit" if the vic can't read a dozen identical scams from a dozen different lads here. And let's face it, the VAST majority of scams follow an identical script in the early stages at least.

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:15 pm

Lots of good points made, keep em coming.

My preference would be to have as much public info as possible and for baiters to take some responsibility, rather than assume its not something you need to bother about because a forum is closed to guests.

I would also like to see the main scambaiting forum as an exception because..

1) The obvious search reasons above as people have highlighted.

2) It would be a participation area and an incentive for members to register to join in the action.

3) It would be a known safe area where members don't feel restricted because they are concerned that their bait might get ruined.

4) Members have been led to believe and been given advice which would suggest that their posts are hidden from the Joe Public. I would be pissed off if I faced having baits ruined or have to search/edit previous posts due to an unexpected forum change. I don't think it would help any reading about the benefits, if I knew from the start that the closed forums wasnt forum policy and could have done more to prevent it.

What about live Safari's etc? Would this have implications if a baiter was using references which a scammer could find on search.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

Way back when, at some point, I had advocated branching off a new forum that was specific to safaris. Such a thread would, in hindsight, probably be too small. But what about creating a log-in-protected forum for safaris, group baits, or other entertaining baits that the good people of Eater create, but want to let other share in the fun as it progresses? This would offer some protection to things like the Shuttle (which has an auto-text function to change its name currently) and other on-going group baits, or those with high visibility, like YW's safaris. They're not really educational, per se, but more for our own amusement. Call it the "Live Baits" forum or something. This is different from the "Publish Your Work Here" forum IMHO.

As for the vast majority of the other forums, I agree on keeping them open.

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:16 pm

When I first joined the forum I did wonder, if indeed it was shooting itself
in the foot by not having a logon.

Now I believe that open policy is the correct way,after all the majority
of the scammers are dumb and lazy ie second scam email sent to a 'full stop' responce from a baiter!!.

The NOMA scam convinces me even more.

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:06 pm

I've recently restarted baiting with a EFCC lad. I'm communicating with a Mrs Zendy Williams and they want me to pay $100 to a Sam Egbo via WU. If that will help save one victim from losing money to these scammers then the risk of the Zendy Williams lad finding these details here is worthwhile.

With the current setup you can hide the details or not. When you are behind a login, you can't chose. I prefer to have the details visable to google so that if one vic finds it then it is worth the risk of having it in the open so to speak.

Baiting Guru Joined: 08 Feb 2005 Posts: 2301

If any of the newer people are concerned about a lad finding these posts, don't. Fairly recently, I had a lad stumble across his photos in the trophy room. My lad sent me an email with links to his photos, asking why they were here an that he's not a scammer. Leccy, Rover and Shiver were kind enough to band together and temporarily remove the photos from the trophy room. In hind sight, this would not have even been necessary. The bait continued, and I've gotten many more trophies out of the lad.

Later on, he found his movies on Youtube. This time, I thought the bait would be over, but with some creative lies, he's still producing trophies. If I would have had a creative lie, when he found his pics in the trophy room, then my temporary name change and removal of the photos wouldn't have even had to happen.

Lads are greedy, and all they need is some reassurance that you're not that evil person on that joker site, 419eater. The vast majority will continue right along with the bait, and give you everything you want. In fact, it's kind of a cool rush to know they're here, looking over your shoulder, and then still being able to make the mugu out of them.

The name "Shiver Metimbers" has been around baiting for a long time. In fact, when you Google that name, the first page is nothing but the Shiver Metimbers we all know. Do you think this stops him from using that in any of his baits? How about we Google Derek Trotter. Gee, lots of anti-scam stuff. Yet, Derek Trotter is still getting artwork. The fact is, most lads will never google your name, and they'll never find this site. Of those that do, most won't understand it. And those that do understand it, will simply leave. In which case, it still leaves the documentation open for real victims, which is what we're all about. HELPING VICTIMS! Trophies are secondary.

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:45 am

At the risk of stating the obvious; if you want to keep a secret - don't tell anybody. Either don't post about your bait or else change all the names and email addresses. The world won't end if your bait features 100 % risky free names and addys.

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:03 am

I agree. I never post my baits because they mostly follow the standard course and MY eyes glaze over reading back over them sometimes so I wouldn't inflict them on anyone else. If something particularly amusing or unusual happens, or if a new modality appears to work then I might post (very) edited highlights but otherwise I really don't think I have anything unique that anyone would be interested reading about verbatim for page after page.

But I still think that on balance potential victims get more benefit from reading published work than lads.

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:42 am

I say keep it public - if my Russian model Ludmilla Kosokalov is googled, I'll just tell a lad, of course she's here, they use her famous name as you would expect. You have the choice to xxxxxxx names, and I frequently do, or mask, so 90+% of issues are in the hands of the poster.

In group or team baits involving ethical issues like noma, then maybe something special can be arranged, but if lads spent much time thinking hard they wouldn't be scamming in the first place. Would it be so bad for a scammer to know he'll be baited from hell and back if he runs a charity scam ? He still won't know the real stuff from the straight baits.

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:48 am

I'd personally like to see at least a single 'confidential' forum just for members other than just the 'help' forum (as per JMRazor's suggestion) for things like specific group baits, baits in progress, discussions among members about particular scammers etc.

Of course a dedicated scammer could still join up themselves and read, however they've always had the option of being able to do this.

I'd be a little saddened however if someone chose to not post a bait that they otherwise were going to (as per some suggestions here) if they were worried about casual prying eyes. After all, is not the whole point of a forum for members to post and share information? Smile

As for googling information on scammer names, would compiling a searchable information page on commonly used scammer names be of any use to Google searching victims? (Just a suggestion).

Cheers,

~Ted

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:47 am

All you, doing it for the attention, make me sick. Stop whining.

I've never had a lad come across my baits... because I dont post them.

Victims are more important than laughs and making you feel important.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

Hi.

I'm thinking that's a bit harsh there, MotherFelix.

Not all published baits are published for attention- and many of us wouldn't be here if not for Shiver and his published baits Wink

Baiting Guru Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 11857 Location: UK

Ok, MF, lets all stop posting baits and photos, then we can delete all the forums except for surplus mail and general chat Rolling Eyes

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:38 am

My memory is a bit murky, but I'm pretty sure the forums were public when I started baiting, and that's one of the reasons I joined. If I had had to register just to peruse the discussions, I likely wouldn't have bothered.

I think keeping them public serves the greater good: it educates victims, potential victims, baiters, wannabe baiters, and so on. It also helps to encourage good baiting behaviour, even among those who may never sign up.

As for MF's point, everyone is free to publish their baits or not as they see fit. Baiting can be a lone wolf activity, but it's a hell of a lot more fun as a social activity IMHO. I think baiting would dwindle substantially if we didn't share our stories.

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:53 am

MotherFelix wrote:

All you, doing it for the attention, make me sick. Stop whining.
I've never had a lad come across my baits... because I dont post them.

@MF- please wake up and smell the coffee. You are really missing the point of this site. We are a community with a common purpose, and that is messing with 419 scammers in every way we can think of, whilst exposing their modalities from the get-go and getting the word out. These fora, including the "Publish Your Work" forum, are an incredible resource for those that Google, and find their scammers posted there. Not posting your completed baits is rather counterproductive, actually.

As for the "attention seekers" making you sick, I personally don't give a hang. Everyone here does their thing, and the word gets out, and that's all that matters. The fact is that that most of our new folks join after reading the baits posted in public! Not the straight baits, mind... its the "attention seekers" that get new folks interested in joining up.

I'm done.

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:35 am

Can't we all just get along?

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:19 pm

Others have said it, but I'd like to add my penny's worth.

Leaving the forums open provides a greater benefit to a larger community, i.e. potential victims, than it does to the scum.

Most scammers copy by rote and are too pressed for time and resources, intellectual and financial, to even know about this site let alone use it effectively, or at all. Those who do come here will only read about how stupid they are made to look, and they'll probably carry on scamming anyway but perhaps with less conviction.

Ultimately, if this site got so many hits that the public at large were massively aware of it, scamming, or at least victims thereof, would diminish and we would have achieved an objective. In a way, we would have worked ourselves out of a job by being too good at it, but that's not a huge price to pay for the benefit to potential victims.

I would add a warning though that we must be particularly careful not to leave our real names, emails, or other identifiable details visible.

John Smith
419 Scammas Way
Crooktown
FU2 419R
Scotland (near England)
Tel : 0419 419419
[email protected]

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:47 pm

I like the forums being open. The more info that gets out there, the better. I had thought that the forums required a login, though, is this a recent change? Are all the forums open, or do some still require a login?

I was going to say that the Help forum should require a login, but then I realized that's wrong. That's the forum where I've seen a pretty large number of people come in after finding us on Google and post "I got this email, what should I do about it". Or "My spouse is currently being scammed, how can I shut it down". So leave the forums open.

A login-required "help, I don't know what to do now on this bait" forum wouldn't be a bad idea, though, it would give baiters a sense of security when asking more experienced members for suggestions.

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