Innoculation for new folks.

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Master Baiter Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 103

for what it's worth, I am a very visual person. it would have been way easier to follow a flow-chart of 'how to' as a first introduction to baiting.

eg.
box 1: set up a screen name on the forum that is not traceable in any way shape or form
to
box 2: set up an IP masking email addy
to
box 3: sign up your baiting name to guestbooks or send ASEMs to lad in surplus
to
box 4: while you wait for responses from box 3 - read NN sticky
to
box 5: find a mentor

you know what I mean.....

you could have boxes with links to each of the necessary items. that way people would be able to see the end and what they have to do to get there. it'd take out a lot of the detective work, and trial and error, that most newbies (myself included) had to go through. I read a ton before trying anything and even then it wasnt enough. I had to change my screenname etc.

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:21 pm

Gnasher wrote:

Read the Stickies Laughing

Actually I think they should be moved, they're in too obvious of a place.

They should only be available to people who've posted in the "look at me I'm new" thread & not just to anyone who signs up cause mugu's can sign up & find out what we're up to & who we are.

Master Baiter Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 103

Gnasher wrote:

Read the Stickies Laughing

that implies that each newbie has experience with forums such as this and knows to take note of stickies.....

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

Lots of good comments.
The mentor program and stickies are there for members who wish to take advantage of them- it's really up to the baiter, I guess.

Telling somebody to read the stickies as an answer to their question is a copout on the poster's part, as far as I'm concerned. Either answer the question and point them to where they can read further, or don't post.
I understand why some do it and, on particularly frustrating days, I've been guilty of it too.
I still think it's a crap answer.
Conversely, before you ask a question please at least attempt to search for the answer, and please at least familarize yourself with the rules for the forum you are posting in- as an example, for God's sake, please stop asking bank killers to take down a phishing site! Meyer has a very succint and insightful reason as to why in the sticky conveniently titled:

Quote:

WELCOME ALL NEWCOMERS! PLEASE READ THIS ANNOUNCEMENT FIRST

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:26 pm

TSnerd wrote:

WELCOME ALL NEWCOMERS! PLEASE READ THIS ANNOUNCEMENT FIRST

or, more usefully...

WELCOME ALL NEWCOMERS! PLEASE READ THIS ANNOUNCEMENT FIRST

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:07 pm

I might take some flak for this post, but I think the dangers of scambaiting, and the requirements for conducting a 'safe bait' are played up a bit too much.

Baiting with Yahoo or Hotmail or other accounts where the IP is not masked. I do this all of the time and I have never been called on it. I suppose there are a few lads out there who could find out that I'm not really where I say I am, but this has not happened in the hundreds of baits I have run. It is not inconceivable that a lad could find out who my service provider is, not inconceivable that they would track down my general location, not inconceivable that somehow or other they would have the ability and inclination to have my service provider reveal my precise location, not utterly inconceivable that they would have the resources to send someone to my door, not inconceivable that the lad who showed up would be in a position to do me something nasty --- just VERY VERY unlikely. I am firmly convinced that I am at a greater risk of being struck by lightning then having anything unfortunate happen to me as the result of revealing my IP. People are struck by lightning relatively regularly. No baiter, to my knowledge, has ever wound up with a lad knowing his real home or work address as a result of a failure to mask his IP.

Using registered (as opposed to pay as you go or throw away) mobile phones. I have used my mobile phone (registered in my name, to my address) to call lads on numerous occassions. I suppose it would be conceivable that my caller ID block feature would fail during a long distance-overseas call and reveal my number, but I haven't had any call-backs thusfar. I have, on more than one occassion, even provided lads with this mobile phone number. Again, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that a lad could figure out who my service provider is and then somehow or other convince said provider to reveal to him my personal information, but this, again, is VERY unlikely. I am convinced that I would be more likely to be hit by a car on my way to work then have any negative consequences arise out this practice. Consequently, I don't care.

Worst case scenario. The lad finds out where you live or work. Unless this happens to be in Nigeria, so what? I challenge anyone on this board to cite a single example of a lad using this information to rob, beat or kill anyone. Annoying phone calls? Perhaps. But little else. There is a story floating around this board of a baiter who used his work fax number to send something to a lad and was surprised when a few lads allegedly showed up at his work looking for him. Well, what happened to this baiter? Was he beaten outside his place of work? Was he fired? Was he followed home from work? Was his home torched? His dog poisoned? Not so far as I have heard. Why? Because doing those sorts of things will get you arrested. 419 crimes are financial crimes. 419ers, like fraud artists in general, do not often look for the sort of exposure that physical assaults, robberies etc. would generate were they to take place in a Western country. Lads work behind the veil of anonymity that the internet and mobile phones provide and, outside of their home turf, would be very reluctant to step into the light of day.

Sure bait safe. There are certain things that could, with much less effort on the part of the mugu then the scenarios described above, lead back to your home or work, and of course this would not be ideal. Apart from this if you want to take the extra precautions go ahead. Aside from some wasted time and extra effort they won't hurt. But please do not listen to the overly cautious members here who seem to believe that we are involved in death defying game of high level espionage where angry mugus will be sending members of their international crime syndicates to your door because you made them look stupid at the Lagos Western Union. Even if you were baiting from home with all of your real information chances are you would not be physically attacked even if you had a mugu take a trip to an ebola infected cave in Uganda. With some rudimentary precautions the likelihood is virtually nil. In fact, you would be the first.

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:27 pm

^^^^ I think you are wrong, and here's why. I took down the bank account of a lad who lives not five miles from me here in London. He was the launderer for an Asian Lottery scam. I had been dealing with the 'company' in Honk Kong (IP confirmed) and the 'bank' in Korea. This wasn't some mischevious Nigerian lads in a net cafe, this was an organised criminal gang. To have the bank account closed, I had to ring the bank and explain to them what was happening. I didn't give my real name but my phone number would have been visible in a caller display.

With the amount of money these guys have, they can easily afford to bribe somebody to reveal information, or blackmail them, or whatever.

ISPs have been known to devulge details about who ratted on a fake bank account. They forward the complaint email in full to the transgressor, stupid buggers!

I still get a shiver when I see somebody looking into my living room from the street.

And, the vlads from Eastern Europe are close knit in a mafia-like way. They are not to be toyed with unless you have bulletproof underwear!

It's no big deal to cover your tracks. Bait safe, be safe!

Not quite a Newb Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 28

I'm a complete newbie to baiting and to the forum (this even being my first post.)

Having been on several forums over the years its so nice to see establised members helping the newer members, it can get so cliquey out there.

I've been lurking here for about a week now, going over all the sections in the website and the forum. The next step for me when I feel ready is to sign up for the mentor programme.

At the moment I know i'm not ready, so that would be my advice from one newbie to another, don't jump in simply because you want to get on with it, go with your gut and when you feel its right.

Maybe its just habit from my student days but i'm glad for it. I don't believe in jumping in and doing something before i'm fully aware of the consequences it can have for me.

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:58 pm

Welcome Willow. Wise words woven wonderfully (always accept alliteration agreeably.)

Bait safe. Very Happy

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:27 pm

I don't even know what to say to all of that General.................
Why take ANY chance when it is so simple to bait safe? You remind of a parachutist who doesn't carry a back up chute. You will probably never need it.... but why in the world would you jump without it? Take it from the pros... if... some of these guys and gals say to bait safe.... then bait safe. Rolling Eyes

It's simple, it makes sense, and people smarter than I tell me to do it. Woiks fer me. Idea

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

I had a similar thought once regarding some sort of test, etc. I brought it up with a mod and he explained his reasoning on why that wasn't going to happen. I think he was/is right.

This is a voluntary hobby (although we can all get obsessive about it). There is a better way to go about it, and a worse way -- but there's really not a wrong way (you can argue cash baiting, but there's nothing stopping anyone from doing it, only from talking about it here).

The best you can do is provide the resources and the guidance to those who wish to bait. If people just rush right in with sign demands, then that's their prerogative. They will eventually learn, if they stick with it, that there's more to learn before the trophies start appearing.

This forum, as well run as it is, generally gets people on the right track early on. If people choose not to use the resources here, then they won't likely be active in this "community" anyway.

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:37 pm

You see, this is what I am talking about. Unecessary paranoia. One needs to understand the mentality of a con man. The lad's goal is to score some cash and then vanish into thin air without being arrested. When fraud artists are operating out of the UK, USA, Canada, Aus etc. they have all the more reason to want to retain their anonymity. They will not come to your house looking for you. It is simply not their modus operandi and it is not a cost-effective way for them to do business. A lad could conceivably pay off someone at an ISP to give your home address and could conceivably pay someone to go and find you but he would be spending a lot of time and money and running a huge risk in doing so for no gain -- it is money they scam for, not honour. They risk arrest, deportation, forfeiture of property not to mention the fact that most people whom they rip off would likely be more of a danger to a lad than vice-versa. What do they do? Change emails and open a new bank account.

Let me illustrate this with an example from my own personal experience. I work as a private detective. I once had a client who fell victim to a very iffy get rich quick scheme and wanted to know if there was anything she could do to recover some of her losses. She had already reported the individuals in question to the police who brushed her off advising her that it was a civil matter. She gave me the name of the guy and I did a few checks with some friends in LE and it turned out that the name the guy provided was recorded as an alias of a man known to be associated with organized criminals of the Italian persuasion. So what did I do? I proceeded to the man's office, walked in, introduced myself and informed him that if he did not return her money that I would sit outside his office and tell every person that walked in, along with everyone else in the building that he was a thief and a liar. The response? I got half of her money back on the condition that I would go away and not tell anyone what he was up to. Did he retaliate? No. Could he have? Probably. He had her full name, address and just about everything else on her and, presumably, the resources to do so. So why didn't he? Because it might have got him arrested, he would have had lots of negative publicity and his source of revenue would have been finished. It was easier and cheaper for him to cut his losses and walk away.

When members of the general public report 419ers what happens to them? Nothing. Ebay scammers (many vlads), lotto scammers, love scammers and classic 419ers are the subject of complaints to law enforcement agencies, ISPs and banks all of the time. These people do not cover their tracks, indeed, many of them have often provided their lads with a comprehensive list of personal details. Yet, as is the case with baiters, I have yet to see a single case where anyone (outside of Africa) came in harms way after dealing a blow to a 419er.

Consequently, I cannot help but conclude that this sport is not nearly as dangerous as some would like to believe. I think, perhaps, the (perceived)element of danger is part of the attraction to this sport for many participants. But let's not blow it out of proportion. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. No one has been killed or hurt scambaiting. Unless I am factually mistaken on this, I will have to leave this as my 2cents.

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:43 pm

Problem is, you're assuming that every single scammer you ever deal with is going to be perfectly rational at all times. The big flaw in doing that is the fact that not all people are rational, and individuals are not all rational all the time. Does it make rational good sense for a person who is essentially a non-violent offender who has little chance of getting caught to risk getting prosecuted for doing violence to someone? Of course not.

Yet, the federal prisons are full of people who maimed or killed others for completely irrational reasons. People who have shot relatives over relatively minor arguments. People who have killed others in order to steal less than $20 from their wallets. People who have kidnapped and murdered innocent toddlers because they cried too much. People who ordered hitmen to do in spouses when the logical thing to do would be to get a divorce. People who beat, tortured and set other human beings on fire because they had the "wrong" color of skin or the wrong sexual orientation. Does any of that sound rational? Of course not.

Violent crimes rarely, if ever, have any logic enter into them.

It didn't make any logical sense for the 419 gang in South Africa to torture and kill George Makronalli and then ask for a ransom from his family, either, but they did it. I mean, why would anyone in their right mind beat a man, break all his limbs, set him on fire while he was still alive, then have the cheek to ask his family for a ransom?

Yes, the chances are very, very slim that you're going to end up on the bad end of an irrational crime of any kind, baiting related or not. However, logic dictates that if given the choice between putting myself at low risk and zero risk, I'm going to choose zero risk. There's always a first time for everything, and one of my major life goals is to never serve as a cautionary tale.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

You know, I've started to reply to your post about six times, but then stopped.
Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, but fuck it.
I'm glad that you recovered half that victim's money and then walked away.
I've read about things like that in private detective novels, and seen it on TV...most recently an episode in last season's 'The Unit'.
I've always wondered if that would work in real life.
Wow.
Do I think that a lad from Lagos that I pissed off is going to stowaway on a boat, sneak into the US, travel cross-country on a Greyhound bus, and then lurk around the bushes in my front yard waiting for me to come home?
No, of course not.
Do I know if a lad I pissed off in Lagos happens to have a relative who works for my ISP who just happened to get a late night call one night and can, illegally, pull up my information?
No, of course not.
But possible.
As I screw around with scammers and their fake bank sites, which cost money to set up, or have counterfeit checks sent to non-existant addresses, which cost money, also, do you think that I'm eventually going to piss one off enough that if he does have the means and way he wouldn't hesitate to reach out and call somebody?
People here in the US are killed everyday- many for absolutely no damn reason anyone can figure out or sometimes for some stupid thing like their sneakers, or wearing the wrong color jacket. If any of these unsolved assaults or murders were because of baiting, would the lads leave a note saying, "Hah hah! this is what we do to jokers from 419Eater!"
With that in mind, you mean to tell me that these 'con men' who know it isn't good for business and will just move along when fucked with (but will torture and burn a victim alive after kidnapping him in a wash-wash scam gone bad) won't bother with that little ole' joking baiter if he has the opportunity?
What about Vlads, since you're the expert.
The Russian Mafia doesn't kill innocent people, right?
Or trolls- they're just harmless and quite normal and sane- they would never bother sending you a box full of shit in the mail if they ever actually knew who you were, would they?
Thanks for your expert opinion, but I'll sticking to eliminating any of the possible what-if's that are out there.

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:54 pm

very well said, Mrs Bean and Mr Snerd Very Happy

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:04 am

TSnerd wrote:

If any of these unsolved assaults or murders were because of baiting, would the lads leave a note saying, "Hah hah! this is what we do to jokers from 419Eater!"

That is the point I was going to raise. Please keep in mind that this is a LARGE board where no one uses their real name. If something were to happen to a member, how would we know? People are always coming and going around here, and many members do not tell family and friends about Eater, or that they bait.

Yes, well said, TSnerd Very Happy

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:11 am

Well, in the case of Mark Time (R.I.P.) I believe a relative of his found he'd been visiting this site, and posted on here to let us know.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

Mrs. Bean said it more politely.
Just thought I'd point that out.

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:35 am

Ivor Grimey Colon wrote:

I believe a relative of his found he'd been visiting this site

No, she was a friend whom he was trying to get started in baiting, which is how she knew to post here.

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:43 am

Here's an analogy..

You're standing at the lions cage at the zoo..There's a know it all guy with his head through the bars taunting the lions..He's telling everyone to look how safe it is to do what he's doing..

After a while one of the lions snaps, jumps at him and takes his head off..

Everyone that used their common sense and didn't take a silly risk they didn't need to in the first place, is still fine and capable to remain as they are and most importantly perfectly safe in the knowledge nothing will happen if they stay behind the bars..

An old saying

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:56 am

@SlayerFaith: Ah yes, misrememberation on my part.

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:56 am

I think there is more than enough information here for people to read. Common sense goes a real long way when you scam bait. We have a few guidelines we offer to help people on the way to baiting safely. We also have a few rules. Please feel free to adopt my new slogan.

Common Sense - It rocks!

I skimmed about the last 15 posts, so I hope my comments are relevant. If not, please PM Leccy for........................... anything.

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:51 am

Well, It would appear that I have been outvoted! Well, majority rules I suppose.

@TSnerd

The sort of case I refered to above is not particularly common. The way I handle those things is to first go and sort of warm up the scammer, in a polite sort of way, trying to relate to him a bit and to drop his facade and then just straight out ask him, man to man, to give you something just to avoid any problems. Then, maybe I would bring in the possibility of involving friends in law enforcement, the media, drop some names of people you might know in common, suggest that you might have to look into his other financial records or to conducted annoying surveillance on him and his business and other things I'm sure you can think of, the goal being to convince him that it is easier for everyone concerned just to oay or split the difference to make the whole thing go away. Works some of the time, and, barring unusually high losses, is often the only approach that is cost effective for the victim of 419-type frauds.

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:19 am

GeneralAbacha wrote:

So what did I do? I proceeded to the man's office, walked in, introduced myself and informed him that if he did not return her money that I would sit outside his office and tell every person that walked in, along with everyone else in the building that he was a thief and a liar. The response? I got half of her money back on the condition that I would go away and not tell anyone what he was up to.

You must be real scary. I'm really surprised that you didn't get the shit beat out of you.... or worse.
I know a few types around here that are only "kinda" shady... and they wouldn't have let you get away with that. Rolling Eyes

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

Quote:

The sort of case I refered to above is not particularly common.

But you posted like it was and made yourself out to be the end all, be all of the discussion, which is bullshit.
That's like successfully car surfing, once, and then proclaiming that it isn't dangerous.
Fanny Plunge's analogy was a good one.
I'm not trying to flame you, but you just can't make posts like that without having anything to back it up- what you choose to do with your baits is fine, but don't come here and tell everybody else that their safety concerns or the way they approach baiting is 'unecessary paranoia' and then climb up on your soapbox and, while you're at it, completely undermine what the members who have been here for years are trying to instill.
Take risks or not- that's your worry, and you're an adult.
Don't give bad advice to the others.

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