My parents aren't happy about the idea of scambaiting

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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:58 pm

As a parent with an 18 and a 20 year old, I can speak from near-time experience. I have great respect for you talking with your folks on the subject, and at least reaching out to the community for feedback. I suspect you were hoping for a loud "Damn the Topredoes... Bait On!" but the actual responses here show that this is a responsible place, populated with responsible folks who take this very seriously.

Do respect your parents feelings on this, do work to educate them, and yes do it slowly, do engage them in your hobby- I personally am no big fan of Ninja Turtles or Halo 2, but spending time with them did allow me to be engaged in my son's lives.

And yes, there are many avenues of bait service without actively baiting the lads- I like the fake bank modality described above- there is mass insulting, there is forum devoted to lads who need some special one-shot attention where you can let fly with all you have without the need to develop a relationship with your lad, tere is document production and graphic design, and just sharing good ideas with others here in the fora.

I'm confident that you will find a good path.

And if all else fails- go with the promise of 15% from the trunk boxes.

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:37 pm

I'll echo the other sentiments. As long as they're just concerned (which is only good sense, really), keep them informed and involved, and they're likely to get a bit more comfortable. There are, after all, a lot of (I swear) adults around here who are concerned about your safety (anyone's safety, actually) and who would tell you if something is a bad idea, if only you ask.

If they continue to be completely uncomfortable with the idea, even if they don't outright forbid it, it might be a good move to acknowlege their worry and offer to stop actively baiting and move to the aforementioned killing of fake bank sites, scam sites and MSN personal addresses (or other pay email accounts). Causes actual financial harm to the lads, annoys and frustrates them with a minimum of effort, and gives you the same warm, fuzzy feeling, if perhaps not quite as many laughs, as baiting them.

That way, you're still fighting crime, but not exposing yourself directly to a criminal element. I would still suggest using an anonymous email address and not revealing your IP when reporting to hosts, though. Some of them are big enough dinks to forward your abuse letter to the lads who purchased the fake bank site, believe it or not. Even if you do just that and run a catcher account and post the interesting ones in the surplus letter forum, you'll be plenty busy and still performing valuable service. You'll be 18 and able to make your own choice about baiting soon enough. At that point, you can take it up again and just not mention it, rather like the bloke I know who used to hide his motorcycle at the neighbor's house every time his parents visited. Not because he couldn't have a motorcycle, but because he knew his parents would just worry unduly for no good reason if they knew he rode one. Me, I don't mention my baiting to my family for the same reasons. I don't want to worry them over nothing.

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:08 pm

Your parents are the ones responsible for you and the ones that COULD go to jail if anything happens to you...

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:09 pm

Double-O has a point, but the thing is, I'm 18 and have been baiting for a year and a half now (I started at about 16). My parents had alot of concern regarding this but after seeing 419eater and everything, they were at ease. The only rule is (which I'm trying to break) that I don't talk on the phone with them. However, I'm getting the equipment to do just that since I'll be moving out soon. My advice, if your parents don't do their research, they can't give the proper advice. This is one of the points where you have to stand up for your rights and tell them to read up on it and then give the advice.

PS: I realize that this is an act of defiance and I ask that whomever should use this tactic know the consequences Smile

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:45 pm

Did you expect your parents to encourage your new hobby?
I'm still trying to figure out why you even told them, or posted that you are only 15. I'm amazed that your parents are even letting you entertain the idea of baiting on any level.

Quote:

If I gave information to police that lead to the arrest of a criminal, or assisted in slowing down a guy who robbed a store so the cops could catch him, my parents would be proud of me.

But would they like the idea of you seeking out stores that are prone to being robbed, even if your hiding in the shadows? Imagine if you told them you were fighting sexual abuse of children by trolling for pedophiles on teen sites, with the nobel purpose of getting them busted, or wasting their time.

Quote:

@Old Coaster said:
Seriously, the problem is that when we are young, our experience is limited, but we lack the experience to know this, so we have huge amounts of self confidence. As we grow older, our level of life experience increases and we realize just how often we fuck up. This makes older people more careful

More specifically:

Quote:

It�s important to understand that the primitive, or instinctual, part of the brain develops first, followed by the parts of the brain that control reasoning and that help us think before we act.
In terms of actual brain anatomy, we�re talking about the amygdala, which is a more primitive part of the brain, responsible for gut reactions, including fear and aggressive behaviors, versus areas like the frontal cortex, which develops later and helps us control our emotions and modify our actions and responses."
Research using functional magnetic resonance imaging demonstrates that teens use their brains differently from adults when reasoning or solving problems. For example, they tend to rely more on these instinctual structures, like the amygdala, and less on the more advanced areas, like the frontal lobes, which are associated with more goal-oriented and rational thinking.

Maybe you are the exception, (as I have seen many rational teens) but I would'nt expect them to be thrilled with the idea of you toying with people that pose such a danger to you, and your family.

@ Old Coaster

Quote:

When properly done, baiting is no more dangerous than parachuting

When properly done parachuting is still extremly dangerous, because you can do everthing right, and still have a bad day.
But unlike baiting. After a good day of parachuting, the dangers don't follow you home.

Quote:

and has a beneficial effect on the world community

Just to let you know, skydivers sponsor hundreds of events every year, that raise millions of dollars for different charities.
I've seen jumpers make 20 or 30 jumps in a day, where they would normally make 5 or 6,( greatly increasing their chance of injury or death) all to support a good cause.

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:50 pm

Red Baron wrote:

I wonder if the lads would pursue a bait from a character claiming to be a minor (who's using his parent's credit card to pay the WU fees). I wouldn't put it beyond their sleaziness.

I offer 1.1 for 1 odds that the lads would scam a 12 year old with AIDS who was using money from selling his retro-viral medication to pay the WU fees and they'd keep scamming him until he twigged or ran out of money or died (then they'd try and scam the family).

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:27 pm

cravin_morehead wrote:

My advice, if your parents don't do their research, they can't give the proper advice. This is one of the points where you have to stand up for your rights and tell them to read up on it and then give the advice.

PS: I realize that this is an act of defiance and I ask that whomever should use this tactic know the consequences Smile

Channeling every parent ever on the planet at this point (and I'm not even a parent yet), I have to say that a fifteen-year-old HAS no rights to assert in this instance. Sorry, but if you're not of age, not paying the bills, and it is not a matter of basic human rights such as the right to proper nutrition/clothing/education, or something else of the like, the parents have the final say. Period. Not allowing you to bait potentially dangerous criminals is not abuse or neglect. Quite the opposite.

You can, as a mature minor, engage your parents in a dialogue, and ask your parents to trust and respect you enough to at least give it a trial run or a full hearing of the facts before making a decision, but you cannot dictate what they let you do. That's not your job. That's the parent's job. Quite rightly so, since, as Double-O pointed out, they are the ones who would be legally responsible for any trouble you get yourself into and for the other worries should a scammer do something rash. I don't believe the RIAA said "Oh, well, then, that's different if your teenager was the one sharing all those files online!" when the adults in the house got named in suits over file sharing. I doubt a scammer would say "Oh, that's different! I got fooled by a teenager, ha, ha. So, I won't send my kneecapper around to visit." if they tracked you down. If you can't pay your own legal or hospital bills, post your own bail, vote or drive, you certainly don't have the right to pick your hobbies over the objections of your parents. Especially not a dangerous one. Baiting IS dangerous if you make a mistake.

And if it were my offspring who kept baiting when I told them to stop, the consequences would be that not being able to bait would be the LEAST of their worries... Whether I did what someone else who has never met my child face to face deems "the proper research" or not. How much research did you do on this user, this user's family situation, the setup they are baiting with, and so on, before offering that advice? Sorry, but I doubt you could ever know this user better than their parents do. Doesn't matter whether the parents research or not. They have the right to tell their child to stop baiting. No matter how mature and responsible their child is.

Under the age of eighteen, you have the optional rights your parents deem you ready to handle. No more. No less. When you're eighteen and can support your own behind and make your own decisions, you can pick your hobbies. A fifteen-year-old needs to defer to the parents. If they feel like hearing it out, fine. If not, then don't bait.

Pick your battles. Baiting isn't worth a battle, and it certainly isn't worth lying or sneaking around over. Especially when there have been several alternatives offered that still allow you to be part of the community and do your part. When you're a minor, baiting isn't a right. It's a privilege.

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:06 pm

One thing I've got to emphasise, keep up the communication with your parents!

Be honest with them, tell them why you find this exciting, but also tell them how you are being mentored (you are aren't you?) and how you're practicing safe sex, opps, safe baiting. Explain how you're protecting your identity, how the IP address on a yahoo or hotmail account can't identify you, and that you will stay within their guidelines (no personal details or photographs is a pretty basic safeguard, and no phone contact is a good safety factor at your age too).

That was a good idea about you speciallising in fake bank killing, there'd be less risk there and you would be accomplishing something extremely worth while. And all those little flags on your signature would lend credibility to your activities.

And keep them up to date with your successes, and tell them about cases of victims losing lots of money that are posted here too.

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:29 pm

My dad worries about my baiting. So does my wife.
I'm older than 15 but I behave like 15 (does that count for anything?)

One piece of advise, some say that bank killing for example is safer and just as nobel... I agree for 50% it is just as nobel.

But if:
- The ISP you send your complaint to is run by idiots
- You send your mail using email addy: <my real first and last name>.<where I live>@<isp>.com or something
- Give the ISP your phone number to call you if they any more questions
- The ISP forwards the complaint to it's customer (the scammer)

You might get a very angry lad on your doorstep that is *'ed off for having his website put down for the X'ed time.

So in my opinion the same rules for baiting go for all activities where you take part in activities that should in my opinion be performed by LEO's. (law enforcement officers) Then why am I baiting and not letting the LEO's do their job... Well I could say because I feel that on this subject they are dropping the ball. but to be honest, I just like to mess with the lads and that they deserve it and that I'm doing something nobel, just makes it ok.

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:38 pm

My daughter is 15, and I don't allow her to scambait on her own yet. But she is allowed to participate with my supervision, and has contributed some great ideas.

My concern with her is that she might slip up on security; she might have another hilarious idea for a lad, and fire off an email from her real email addy by mistake. I'm not saying that 15 year olds in general can't handle the security aspects; you might be ready to take responsibility for your own safety, as every young person is different.

I agree with all the other posters who suggested maintaining communication with your parents. They might be reassured somewhat if your mentor is willing to drop them a note. If you can help them understand that you are trying to protect innocent victims by running interference (not to mention having a great laugh while doing so), maybe they would be willing to supervise your baits (or allow your mentor to) and let you continue.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 42

I'm new here myself, but I'll add my voice to the chorus. I'll put it as simply as I can: your parents are probably paying for your Internet connection and computer, so you've got to respect their wishes. (Well, to an extent anyway. Heh heh heh.) I'm older than 15, for certain, but I'll state without equivocation that I am very, very slowly dipping my toe into this whole thing, because indeed these guys are scum; and unlikely though they'll ever find you, you want to make sure that in your own mind you are mature and responsible enough to understand that it ain't all just fun and games...though there seems to be quite a lot of fun here indeed.

Just two cents from an untested newbie. Godspeed.

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:55 pm

Actually SimonLynxx is on to something here.

When dealing with these scumbags be prepared to see the realy nasty side of humanity. Scams based on car accidents, plane crashes or even the holocaust. I would rate that 18+ and give 15 years old beer and porn. (Actually I had beer and porn before I was 15 and I turned out fine. Razz

)

Master Baiter Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 128

My mom mentioned today that what she's really worried about is my baiting ending up getting a mugu killed.

I told her that a lad is coming to the airport today to meet me. She gave me a scenario where the mugu comes, tells his boss he didn't meet me, the boss gets suspicious that he stole the money, then kills him. I didn't really know how to respond to that.

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:12 am

^^^^^^ How much television does she watch? Sounds like lots. Very Happy

Tell her it just doesn't work that way.

Master Baiter Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 128

Well, I think everyone here knows that the chances of that happening are infinitely slim, but I really didn't know how to make it clear to her that stuff like that just doesn't happen.

And yes, my mom loves shows like The Sopranos and Law and Order.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 61

Keytool wrote:

I told her that a lad is coming to the airport today to meet me. She gave me a scenario where the mugu comes, tells his boss he didn't meet me, the boss gets suspicious that he stole the money, then kills him. I didn't really know how to respond to that.

'That's the idea!' or 'That's what we're shooting for!' maybe?

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:42 am

Well, there's a saying, "It isn't the same both in life and in reality". Shows are just shows. The scenario when a 419 boss sends his valet and then kills him after the valet fails is directly from shows. Bosses should have really reliable source of valets to dispose of them so easily.

But if put all the jokes aside, there is one simple rule: every living person is responsible for his/her life. That applies to you, that applies to the scam artist and his boss etc etc. You should only understand quite clear that there IS danger, that it is you parents you will expose to legal consequences if you run into troubles, that the fun of the scambaiting is to keep balance, keep safe and do not become like your targets.

I suppose you will find proper words to explain all of that to your parents, but legally it is they who will have the last word, I am afraid.

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:43 am

These guys are scum who would and have drained poor victims of every penny they have. They have murdered, they have destroyed lives in every way possible. Nothing, including being killed by their bosses who would do the same, is too harsh for them. But I don't think your mom will listen to that answer.

In fact, I'm not sure what answer she would listen to. It sounds like she made up her mind based entirely on an emotional reaction, and no reasons you can give her will convince her otherwise.

Elite Baiter Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 1709

Keytool, you have had a lot of good advice especially from Os in Ijsland and Crashhoot.

I also speak both as a moderator and baiter and a parent. I think if you could show your parents that you are baiting only under supervision of an older member that would go a long way to ease their minds. The fact you are so willing to listen to them says a lot for your maturity and I'm sure they appreciate that. I'm assuming you have a mentor, if not you definitely should, but you need to have a closer relationship with the mentor than is standard and check everything new that you do with them. By all means put your parents in touch with your mentor or with one of us if this will make them feel better.

If they still are really worried about your safety, perhaps you could compromise by participating in a way that keeps you off the main firing line. There's always the opportunity to provide service to other baiters if you are good at something like photoshop or creative writing. Alternatively, the fake bank killing area is a very important project and also quite safe.

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:37 am

Keytool wrote:

I told her that a lad is coming to the airport today to meet me. She gave me a scenario where the mugu comes, tells his boss he didn't meet me, the boss gets suspicious that he stole the money, then kills him. I didn't really know how to respond to that.

Simply explain to your mother that if every lad got killed who didn't meet his maga at the airport, there would be no more lads!

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:53 am

Besides, you don't just go around killing a valet for going to the wrong airport as it will invariably turn out to be... I thought you meant Lagos, Portugal!!! My mistake... well now we have to wait a couple of weeks while I get a Nigerian visa, and then we are all fine as I can shift the lad off the airport modlaity and all is good once again.

I also get the feeling that the lad/oga relationship is more like the addict/pusher relationship... the oga is not a crimelord who directs his minions to do his bidding, but more like the dealer who is pushing the tricks of the trade into the hands of the fools who use them, and then either getting a fee up front or a piece of the action on the back end, hence the push from the oga for results, and sometimes stepping in to take a senior boy role to fix a broken scam etc.

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:56 am

Well, I guess you have to listen to your parents at the end of the day. However, that doesn't mean you have to miss out all the fun. You can still read and post on the forum. Post your ideas, receive scam mails, identify fake banks and kill them. You can actually learn just by doing that.

I guess when you're a bit older, wiser and more experience we know you can scambait safe and sound without your parents and lots of members here worried their gut out for you.

Very Happy

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:51 am

I think it's prudent to add that just because your lad is claiming to be meeting you at the airport, doesn't necessarily mean that they will. You could try telling that to your parents if they think that you're playing with someone's life. Remember that the lads will try to exploit any and every opportunity they can. Expect to see things like "I'm starving. I'm dying, I have no money", blah blah. It may seem hard hearted, but that just won't fly with me Wink

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

To echo what Mark Time wrote, these people often claim to be dying of simultaneous multiple cancers while quoting scripture- they will say and do anything if they think it will get them money. They are scum and I doubt that they've ever met a lie they didn't like Evil or Very Mad

419Eater is my life Joined: 12 Jun 2005 Posts: 442

I'm nearly 30 years old and my parents have voiced concern - the questions came up when I started getting trophies, odd docs, etc that I was saving. You sound like you have caring parents. Looks like a lot of the advice already given is good, so no need for me to rehash Very Happy

Parents are parents. The(good ones) care about their children regardless of age.

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