Collaboratively scam the scammers

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Hello I'm New here! Joined: 29 Jul 2016 Posts: 6

Hi guys,

I've been reading your messages for a while, but that's my first post!
I've made an Android App that allows us to scam the scammers, basically when you receive a scam, you add it to the app, then everybody can reply to the scammer (and everybody see their messages, so we can have fun).
I was wondering if anybody here wanted to try it out.
Edited link-Capone
It's not perfect, I'm open to suggestion !
I'm not sure the app is very clear, as one of my first user was a Nigerian scammer, he apparently thought it was an app to help him scam people...

Cheers!

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:09 am

So, basically, you're going to enable a lot of people who don't understand the consequences of what they are doing communicate with scammers using their real life details. Rolling Eyes

And you might want to rethink the name as we don't "scam" the scammers, that would suggest that you are trying to make a monetary gain from them.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:21 am

Hi ScamThemAll and welcome to Eater.

We don't "scam the scammers". Full stop. Please read the Stickies before you post.

B8er is right-that app actually would expose people who may be taken in to a scammer's routine. And it gives the scammer RL info, such as phone numbers or email addies. Bad idea. Especially since you've given a criminal info about you.

Finally, we do not involve Innocent Third Partys (ITPs). Ever. Please rethink this

ETA: I've edited out the link. We don't advertise here. You can invite interested members to PM you.

.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 29 Jul 2016 Posts: 6

Hi Capone, Hi B8er,

Thank you for your replies.
Well, "scam" the scammer is perhaps not the most appropriate term, as there is no gain involved, but the goal is to make them waste their time, so I think it is a scam in its own way, as it exploits the scammer credulity.
I am not sure what you mean by Innocent Third Parties, the messages the scammer get are only send by the people using the app.
And who are these people? People who want to make scammers waste their time. I don't really see how innocent people could use my app to unknowingly transmit personal information to scammer (by the way, emails address are automatically created and no information beside what people are writing is send to the scammer), they KNOW they are talking to a scammer.
Could innocent people mistakenly download my app and talk to scammers? They would have to try very hard, I have trouble wrapping my mind around what some granny could type on the playstore search to end up with my app, then decide to talk to the scammer without ever knowing it's the scammer...

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

^ https://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176248 Wink

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:01 am

Innocent third parties: You say in your first post that anyone can receive a scam and add it to the app, then everyone can message the scammer.

How can you be sure that people are adding real scammers and not their ex, or anyone else they may have a grudge with? Or even if you have strict instructions about what qualifies as a scam, naive members of the public have a great deal of variation about what might qualify. We've seen this happen time and time again with "scammer email" lists online, that turn out to contain various non-scammers: innocent third parties, scam baiter addresses, etc etc.

We do have a lot of different scambaiting tools around, but a great deal of thought (and discussion) has gone into them to ensure that they fit with our forum rules and policies. If not we cannot endorse them here.

Quote:

... one of my first user was a Nigerian scammer...

This snippet from your post suggests that users anonymity may be compromised (at least from your view as app administrator). As I don't have enough information to know otherwise I took the cautious view and also wondered whether regular users identities might also be non-anonymous.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 29 Jul 2016 Posts: 6

Thank you for your reply firehouse5,

those are indeed valid concerns.
But the App is actively moderated, the user has to add the message the scammer sent. If it is not a scam, it will be of course deleted.

Quote:

how can you be sure that people are adding real scammers and not their ex, or anyone else they may have a grudge with?

And how gay-porn/far-right/whatever-might-be-offensive websites are sure that emails added to their mailinglist are valid emails and not someone's ex?
They don't. There is no way.
But I don't think it is a problem at all. The scammer email is not disclosed.
The person will receive weird emails that don't make sense, will block the sender address and that's all.

Quote:

This snippet from your post suggests that users anonymity may be compromised (at least from your view as app administrator). As I don't have enough information to know otherwise I took the cautious view and also wondered whether regular users identities might also be non-anonymous.

Well it's simply was from an IP in Nigeria...
Obviously only the webmaster has access to this information. Could I get rid of it ? No.
Any server knows your ip. You know mine.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:20 am

ScamThemAll wrote:

But I don't think it is a problem at all. The scammer email is not disclosed.
The person will receive weird emails that don't make sense, will block the sender address and that's all.

And this is why you won't fit in here unless you change your mindset Wink

You seem to be quite happy for your app to spam totally innocent people with whatever abuse your users decide to send.

And as for "I have trouble wrapping my mind around what some granny could type on the playstore search to end up with my app" - the Playstore gives recommended apps to people - I've regularly had apps appear as recommendations that bear no relation to the type of apps I have downloaded. So, what is to stop some teenager (or younger) seeing your app in their recommendations and thinking, "I'll have some fun trolling the dumb scammers" and mistakenly giving out identifying information?

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

Dude, I'll be blunt.

We have been doing this for a few years and have distilled our practices down to what you see now through a long collaborative process.

Join up, do a few baits and get the feel for the place. Of course, you can do what you want, we are not your mother. Please just don't expect any enthusiasm about your project from us.

Elite Baiter Joined: 28 Mar 2015 Posts: 1916

^^^ "I'll have some fun trolling the dumb scammers" : This applies to angry 'grannies' who have been scammed and are looking for revenge, too.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 29 Jul 2016 Posts: 6

B8er wrote:

ScamThemAll wrote:

But I don't think it is a problem at all. The scammer email is not disclosed.
The person will receive weird emails that don't make sense, will block the sender address and that's all.

And this is why you won't fit in here unless you change your mindset Wink

You seem to be quite happy for your app to spam totally innocent people with whatever abuse your users decide to send.

Are you serious? So mailing-list are also immoral, since they don't verify that the email really belongs to the person to the person who signed up. Or basically every service on the internet that requires an email address without verification.
If I read correctly, you are basically accusing me of being happy to spam innocent people, is that right?
Is doesn't even make sense, let's say I want to bother someone, I add his email to my app and pretend it sent me a scam.
One user is gonna write him, ok, what could be the message "yes I am very interested in [insert scam here], give me more informations".
Doesn't even make sense for the innocent victim, he can safely ignore it, or block it. If you really hate someone I think you have better ways to make him suffer... I'm not saying this scenario wouldn't happen, but it will be extremely rare.

B8er wrote:

the Playstore gives recommended apps to people - I've regularly had apps appear as recommendations that bear no relation to the type of apps I have downloaded. So, what is to stop some teenager (or younger) seeing your app in their recommendations and thinking, "I'll have some fun trolling the dumb scammers" and mistakenly giving out identifying information?

If I, again, read correctly, this app is shit because I am not preventing retarded users to send identifying information to people they know are scammers?

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

^ Have you ever been to Wyoming?

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 29 Jul 2016 Posts: 6

Pastor Frank wrote:

Dude, I'll be blunt.

We have been doing this for a few years and have distilled our practices down to what you see now through a long collaborative process.

Join up, do a few baits and get the feel for the place. Of course, you can do what you want, we are not your mother. Please just don't expect any enthusiasm about your project from us.

Well, as I said, I've been reading you since a while, and I agree that you do have good practices.
You brought up some points about my app, and I tried to address them. If you still think my replies are not satisfactory I would be delighted if you could tell me what you think is still wrong.
In any case I thank you for the feedback, good or bad, it's still useful.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 29 Jul 2016 Posts: 6

Pastor Frank wrote:

^ Have you ever been to Wyoming?

I have unfortunately not, I heard it's charming!

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:45 am

ScamThemAll wrote:

Are you serious? So mailing-list are also immoral, since they don't verify that the email really belongs to the person to the person who signed up. Or basically every service on the internet that requires an email address without verification.
If I read correctly, you are basically accusing me of being happy to spam innocent people, is that right?

the ethos of this forum is that we bait responsibly - just because other individuals or organisations couldn't give 2 sh*ts about monitoring their lists, and running the risk of affecting ITP's, doesn't mean that they should be emulated

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

You did not answer the question. Have you ever been to Wyoming?

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:46 am

ScamThemAll wrote:

Are you serious?

Yes, totally

ScamThemAll wrote:

So mailing-list are also immoral, since they don't verify that the email really belongs to the person to the person who signed up.

Legitimate mailing-lists ensure that emails being added to them are verified as wanting to be added.

There are regular threads on here advising new members not to use certain scammer mailing lists because they do not verify the addresses on them - your app is likely to join that list as something people should avoid.

ScamThemAll wrote:

If I read correctly, you are basically accusing me of being happy to spam innocent people, is that right?

That's right.

ScamThemAll wrote:

One user is gonna write him, ok, what could be the message "yes I am very interested in [insert scam here], give me more informations".
Doesn't even make sense for the innocent victim, he can safely ignore it, or block it. If you really hate someone I think you have better ways to make him suffer... I'm not saying this scenario wouldn't happen, but it will be extremely rare.

You can guarantee that the ITP will only get one innocent email and ignore it, can you? ............. No, I thought not. And even if they do, you are still involving them in your member's games.

ScamThemAll wrote:

If I, again, read correctly, this app is shit

Yep, as you have implemented it, the app is shit.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:48 am

Pastor Frank wrote:

You did not answer the question. Have you ever been to Wyoming?

nope, but i did once pick my feet in Poughkeepsie

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

ScamThemAll wrote:

I heard it's charming!

You have no idea how charming it can be.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:49 am

We are not saying your app is shit or anything of the kind. Nor are we accusing you of immorality. We just are suggesting it needs work and isn't consistent with our forum rules.

BTW, we are very careful even with mailing lists for reasons FH5 identified.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:51 am

ScamThemAll: your app is your own business, but we have stricter rules here. We have been many, many times through discussions about whether it's ok to send baiting messages to non-scammers, and here on 419eater our rule is NO.

It would be nice to have a useful tool that can be used within the bounds of our policies but appears your app does not qualify at the moment.

As this discussion has already degenerated into an argument about whether our rules are correct, I am going to lock the thread. please do feel free to send me a private message if you'd like further input.

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