scam stats and scambaiting stats

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Not quite a Newb Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 22

Hello all:

I am trying to find some stats on various types of scams and various types of scambaiting.

The goal here is to document with some actual reasonable verifiable and understandable data (as opposed to anecdotal stories) that these scams are a serious problem and that scambaiting can have a useful deterrent effect.

You don't need to convince me that it's a problem and that scambaiting helps. My problem is convincing others who want hard data. Is there anything out there? Any perhaps academic type studies of the problem or possible solutions?

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:39 pm

Hello SS,

It would be helpful if you advised why you are working on this project, ie, its end purpose.

Cheers.

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:46 pm

We, as far as I know, don't keep such statistics for various reasons. For one, maintaining them would be a huge workload. Even some basic questions like "how many scammers there are" is something we probably could roughly estimate, but "too many" is still just as valid answer because, second, we don't need to be convinced. We see it. Every day. The workload wouldn't even nearly correlate with the benefits. Then third, before any statistics could be provided, first we should know what we are measuring. OK, so how many scammers are there? How much do they make per year? How many victims are there? What's the average each victim pays...

Sure, you could measure those in a way. It would be difficult and likely still inaccurate, but in theory possible. But then how do we measure the success of scambaiting in statistics? What's the common denominator? Is a safari more valuable than a tattoo? Is a trophy more valuable than a bank account of a mule or a compromised credit card? What kind of trophy: does it have to be a wooden carving, or will a funny photo do? It all becomes a matter of interpretation. Scambaiting is teamwork. It's difficult to measure as individual units, unless we could have hard data on how many scammers have quit the game because of us. That's something we don't have. It's not like they tell us "thanks for making my life miserable, I have seen the light and quit scamming". Well, not unless they add right after that: "Now I need you to send me mucholotsof money so that I can buy food". That they have done several times, to me as well.

The closest I think you might get is researching how many crimes related to 419 is reported in your country, or even just your local district. But I'm afraid our crew is not able to provide you an answer, at least not one that I would find satisfactory because of the reasons above. We don't measure stuff. We make stuff happen. Emphasis on "We".

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:53 pm

Have a look here: https://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=259375

The last three bullet points have verifiable facts we can provide. Other than that, it's like measuring the Butterfly Effect.

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:54 pm

Can we change Duckling's tag to "Professor Waffle"?

Not quite a Newb Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 22

The Monsignor wrote:

It would be helpful if you advised why you are working on this project, ie, its end purpose.

I would like to convince others to fund some scambaiting efforts, but they won't do it without at least some hard facts as to the prevalence and costs of the problem - and some indication that scambaiting can be an effective tool to help mitigate the problem.

I am not asking for stats maintained by or related to 419eater specifically (although if such things existed they would at least be a start), but rather stats related to the scams and scambaiting in general. In other words, while I assume that we all agree these kinds of scams are a massive and important problem, and that scambaiting can be a useful tool to help mitigate the damage that these scams do, I would think that by now someone somewhere has collected some kind of stats on the problem.

For instance, has anybody has done any kind of academic type study of the problem, is it growing, decreasing, etcetera?

I am not new to scams, scambaiting, or the issues involved. I know that hard facts will be difficult to obtain, but I would think that maybe someone has some reasonable stats. Maybe there is a government agency that has collected stats on the number of such scam complaints over the years?

I know that measuring the effect of scambaiting is difficult to near impossible, but there might be someone somewhere who has given it a go.

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:00 pm

So, basically being a volunteer isn't good enough for you, you want to get paid to scambait and you're too lazy to do your own research. Rolling Eyes

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:03 pm

scamstats wrote:

I would like to convince others to fund some scambaiting efforts...

SS, please be more specific, as what you are posting seems a little puzzling. For eg, what is your position/involvement, and who are the 'others'?

Many thanks.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Have you looked at IC3? It's FBI, so not worldwide, and scams are hugely under-reported, but they put out an annual report.

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
http://www.ic3.gov/media/annualreports.aspx

Not sure how/why you're trying to get funding for scambaiting, though. Care to elaborate since you're asking for our help?

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:06 pm

Something like this might be helpful:

https://www.cs.umd.edu/~elaine/docs/scambaiter.pdf

This is an academic writeup analyzing common themes in Craigslist scammers. It doesn't have the stats you are looking for, but it does give you a sense of the scammers' locations, methods, and what tactics could be successfully used to disrupt them.

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:34 pm

I'm a little confused as to what "fund[ing] some scambaiting efforts" entails. After all, baiting doesn't cost that much -- all you need is a computer, an internet connection, some free time, and a wicked imagination.

Since the only item on that list that may require compensation is time, I agree with B8er's assessment that OP is looking to get paid/pay someone to bait.

And, for me, that takes all of the fun out of it. Baiting is something I do because I enjoy it. I can do it on my own terms, I get some entertainment from it, and I get to hang out with some pretty cool folks.

If I were paid to do so, I think it would quickly become a lot less fun. After all, the people with the pocketbooks are going to want to be sure that their money is well spent, which means that you're now going to have to report and quantify your activities. Um, speaking for myself, thanks but no thanks.

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:40 pm

B8er wrote:

Can we change Duckling's tag to "Professor Waffle"?

Does that title come with the office and beverage benefits of Eater's minister of misinformation?

Not quite a Newb Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 22

The Monsignor wrote:

scamstats wrote:

I would like to convince others to fund some scambaiting efforts...

SS, please be more specific, as what you are posting seems a little puzzling. For eg, what is your position/involvement, and who are the 'others'?

Thanks to those who provided some links, they are very close to the kinds of things I am looking for. If there is anything else out there even remotely similar I'd love to get a pointer to it.

For those with more questions I can say the following:

I have done my fair share of scambaiting. I have sent many lads on safari and wasted their time in all kinds of ways. I believe that my efforts were worth my time because I believe that while they were engaged with me they weren't scamming some poor old lady out of her retirement savings. I have had the police actually go to the home of, and close down, people in FL who were printing fake checks for craigslist scams (they were essentially duped mules).

I am not looking for others to fund my own personal individual scambaiting efforts. I am looking to try and engage corporate funding of scambaiting as a "serious" and organized corporate-level endeavor.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that what I have done in the past related to scambaiting was serious, and I believe that what people do here is serious - despite the fun involved. But I would like to see if I can't convince others with some deep pockets that this is a problem worthy of their attention and that they might be able to fund a way to make an actual dent in the problem.

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:07 pm

scamstats wrote:

I have sent many lads on safari...

Please say more about this.

(I will leave the more 'political' element of your Post to those more fitted to respond).

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:08 pm

^^

scamstats wrote:

I am not looking for others to fund my own personal individual scambaiting efforts. I am looking to try and engage corporate funding of scambaiting as a "serious" and organized corporate-level endeavor.

Then I take it you have contacts with the people with deep pockets already established, am I right?

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:19 pm

scamstats wrote:

corporate funding of scambaiting as a "serious" and organized corporate-level endeavor.

You really need to explain yourself better - if you're this vague with your prospective "backers", they'll laugh you out the door.

What part of scambaiting do you think can be funded? TLH pretty much summed up what's involved and as he said, it only leaves getting paid for your time - which to me sounds like a job.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 22

The Monsignor wrote:

scamstats wrote:

I have sent many lads on safari...

Please say more about this.

On one occasion I told a lad that I had sent the requested money by Western Union to a particular Western Union location. The lad later told me that he went there but that he was not able to obtain the funds. Perhaps he knew that he didn't really have to go to a specific location and maybe he didn't really go there, but even if he didn't actually go there, I certainly wasted a lot of his time interacting with me before he finally gave up. I tried various ploys like that on several different lads. I was never really into getting trophies or any documentation or anything like that, but I enjoyed wasting their time and felt it was a useful endeavor.

On one occasion while working a craigslist scam I actually got the mule who sent me the fake check to call me and I found the physical location associated with his telephone number. The police went there and found the guy printing fake checks (they actually found dozens waiting to be sent out by mail). The guy thought he had a real job and he thought that the checks he was printing were real checks.

The Monsignor wrote:

(I will leave the more 'political' element of your Post to those more fitted to respond).

There was a 'political' element of my post?

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Please understand that by the very nature of what we do here, we are a cynical bunch. Wink

Your description of your baits doesn't exactly equal "many lads on safari" . . . nor even one lad on safari. Wink

Baiting history aside, because all baiting is a contribution to the cause, your vagueness about what you're up to regarding the funding has some members on edge, and it's only leading to more questions.

Ultimately, I don't know that you're going to be able to get the info you're searching for help with: Good scam stats simply don't exist, and the stats that do exist can easily be found with Google.

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:46 pm

I do this as a hobby, what if mastercard began sponsoring us? If this ever becomes Mastercard: Presents 419eater.com A Mastercard Production then you won't see me for dust and in terms of paying to do it, would we have a quota of lads to bait like a cold-calling call centre. This is purely a hobby it is hardly ethical business to make a scammer stand with a fish on his head.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 22

B8er wrote:

scamstats wrote:

corporate funding of scambaiting as a "serious" and organized corporate-level endeavor.

You really need to explain yourself better - if you're this vague with your prospective "backers", they'll laugh you out the door.

What part of scambaiting do you think can be funded? TLH pretty much summed up what's involved and as he said, it only leaves getting paid for your time - which to me sounds like a job.

Yes, I am talking with several people who might be interested in funding scambaiting. I am looking into various formats (the type of scam, the type of baiting, etcetera). Hence the interest in some background general stats.

Some people won't want to get paid to engage in scambaiting. That's OK. I respect that. But perhaps there are a lot of people out there who would spend a little time at it if they got a little something "more" out of it then just the respect of their fellow scambaiters. That wouldn't be a bad thing would it? After all, isn't the goal to waste the lads time so that they don't scam real victims. If some people waste a lads time for a trophy or for the "atta boy" of their fellow scambaiters that's great. But isn't it also good if some people do the same thing because they get a little extra cash for their efforts?

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

scamstats wrote:

But isn't it also good if some people do the same thing because they get a little extra cash for their efforts?

No, I don't think so. We're volunteers, all of us, here, at ScamWarners and at every other good anti fraud site I know of. The ones who have a commercial component seem to have lost site of the goal.

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:51 pm

I'm out, good luck with your new job - if you want more help with your research then my consultancy rate is €200 per hour Wink

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:51 pm

scamstats wrote:

If some people waste a lads time for a trophy or for the "atta boy" of their fellow scambaiters that's great. But isn't it also good if some people do the same thing because they get a little extra cash for their efforts?

I for one don't want such people here any more than I want racist pricks who bait lads because of their skin colors.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 22

Ima Baeder wrote:

Please understand that by the very nature of what we do here, we are a cynical bunch. Wink

Your description of your baits doesn't exactly equal "many lads on safari" . . . nor even one lad on safari. Wink

Baiting history aside, because all baiting is a contribution to the cause, your vagueness about what you're up to regarding the funding has some members on edge, and it's only leading to more questions.

Ultimately, I don't know that you're going to be able to get the info you're searching for help with: Good scam stats simply don't exist, and the stats that do exist can easily be found with Google.

Well, I never claimed to be a master-baiter. I was just a hack at it. But I had my fun. Maybe I exaggerated by claiming to have sent many lads on safari. I did interact with many lads and tried to send many on safari. How's that for probably a more accurate description?

I understand the skeptical questions. I will do my best to answer them. But I don't want to give away all of my ideas on the matter. I hope you can understand and respect that.

Yup, I know the problem about lack of stats. Like I said, the links already provided were really good. Maybe there's more info like that out there. Maybe not. I'll keep looking.

The goal as I see it is to get as many people as possible to waste as much time of as many lads as possible. People here can really dig in deep on an individual lad, but what if there was a way to broaden the scope? More people engaging more lads. That's got to be a good thing right?

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:56 pm

Ima's right, there's no motivation if we are not wasting their time. For example commerically bait a nigerian scammer, bait him and then report to the Nigerian police. But wait the police there are corrupt dicks who are paid off by the organised scamming gangs who can easily replace any imprisoned lads within the hour and so... the cycle continues.

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