Bon jovi one and all - up and at 'em !

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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:23 am

^^ happy to go along with almost all of that except that I know a crime has to have the element of 'mens rea' or guilty intent plus 'actus rea' or the guilty act.

Some offenses are absolute - such as speeding or parking where no intent is necessary, but criminal offenses need proof of dishonest intent and the authorities could never show that in my case though its best to avoid being questioned.

In addition, I have not tried to take the money out of the account so there is no argument about 'obtaining' the money..

I cannot have criminal liability without criminal intent. Civil liability can always be argued if it causes the bank costs, but unwittingly paying in a stolen check is not a criminal offense without the knowledge that it is stolen and an intent to obtain money dishonestly. If it were , we would all be criminals every time any of us pay in a check which subsequently bounces.

Going to the bank and sitting down with an assistant manager and asking them to check it is genuine means no way can any offense have been committed by the depositor

I accept that the banks try to charge every kind of fee under the sun !

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:03 pm

^^^

Bring back Steward and the good DrTimothy!

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:05 pm

Let's hold off on judgement, folks. The OP has not reached the status of Steward or Dr. Timothy at this point. If the OP posts the messages received, it would clarify things a lot.

For the record, ASKING if a check is real or not does not absolve you of guilt. If you had evidence that pointed to it being a fake, and withheld that evidence from the bank, as your own writing suggests, then you are in fact open to criminal charges. It can be easily argued that you asked as a means to verify that your scam was going to work. I do agree that if you actually explained the situation, and handed the bank evidence the check was fake, and they still chose not to stop it, it would be different, unless of course there was evidence that you knew it was fake before you deposited it in the first place.

Honestly, if I worked for the bank and I encountered a cocky attitude from someone who should have known better but chose to waste my business's time and money anyway, I would be on the phone with the police the moment the fake was detected.

Starting a thread like this, with a cocky attitude and an apparent determination to prove you know more than anyone here about scammers, is like someone who has never been near a plane going to a forum full of airplane mechanics, and telling them how to fix a complex engine problem. The people who have responded to you have years of collective experience, and have literally dealt with thousands of these scammers. Most of us are interacting with more scammers and victims in a single day than you have in your lifetime.

If you want to learn more about these scams and scammers, and maybe learn how to really mess with them safely, stick around. We are a nice group (most of us anyway) and we will always be happy to help out a newbie who asks. If your goal is to one-up people, you will find that this will not be an enjoyable place for you.

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:01 pm

Although I am a new to this forum, I have not just hatched out. I started studying criminal law in October 1967 and after 6 years I progressed to the highest exams in the UK where I came 4th. I then Studied civil law for 7 years. My career was as Finance Director and legal officer for a group of 28 companies in Europe which were in turn subsidiaries of a US Public Company.

The US criminal code is a continuation of English Common Law with changes in the wording which extend the concept of criminal negligence to some degree but not much. The fact is that millions of Americans pay millions of checks into millions of accounts every week and they KNOW that a percentage of them will turn out to be stolen/forged. The idea that all those small business owners become criminals and felons by doing that is clearly preposterous. I hope that doesn’t sound too cocky

An example: If I drive my car while I am too tired and I crash, I am committing a criminal offense through negligence even though there is no expressed intent

Exactly the same principle applies with checks. If a known forger says “take this check and pay it in and give me 50% “, then I am a criminal if I do it because even though I do not know the check is a dud, I have enough evidence and it is criminally negligent to pay it in and attempt to get the funds

Its all a matter of degree that swings it into negligence territory. I paid in a check from a Craig's list customer and I asked to sit down with the assistant manager, and I showed him all the correspondence and asked him to verify the check. I had no more suspicion than millions of business owners who take checks from all sorts of undesirables who come into their shops.

Further, I did not attempt to withdrawal those funds or obtain the money. In those circumstances, no prosecutor would attempt to charge me with a criminal act

It's natural that a person speaking on their own subject might appear 'cocky', but I think that is better than showing overt aggression based more on me being new to the board rather than anything else.

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:58 pm

Latest information:
It is now two weeks and one day since I banked the check.
The bank confirms they have received funds
The buyer has not contacted me since saying he would collect the boat end of November/early December

I understand that checks can be detected as a forgery weeks after they have cleared, but am thinking that a scammer would ask me for a refund ( part or whole) within the 2 weeks it normally takes for a check to clear

Any thoughts on that anyone ?

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:51 pm

Hi All,

After reading both threads on this, I tend to come to a conclusion that it appears to be a scammer who has stolen an identity and gained control of the victim's bank accounts.
Obviously this scammer will try to milk the accounts. By making purchases and then later selling the items (maybe).

This definitely needs further investigation. It smells of scam but it may be legit.
Take care.

Cheers Smile

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:47 am

^^
I was thinking along those lines too - that IF it's a scam then they were after the goods - but that doesn't fit with " I will pick the boat up in 3 months". They should really get the boat within a week or so.

I am working with the following theories:
A: It was going to be scam but they changed their minds (they might read these forums !). In that case the check could still be discovered to be a forgery if the real account holder only checks their balances once per month

B: It's legit

If it's a scam, I can't see they would ask for a refund at this late stage or go for a pickup of the goods 3 months hence - because if it is stolen identity, the police would be waiting for them

Can anyone think of a theory C: ?

If it does turn out to be legit then it would cause a rethink as we would have a Craigslist customer from 800 miles away buying a boat unseen and sending a check for the full amount and asking for the boat three months hence ..and then not asking for a kick back !

If this turns out to be legit then it would be a good argument against the death penalty for sure because I would have been with the doubters

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:57 am

What are the chances of this being a straight deal?

Quote:

Exactly the same principle applies with checks. If a known forger says “take this check and pay it in and give me 50% “, then I am a criminal if I do it because even though I do not know the check is a dud, I have enough evidence and it is criminally negligent to pay it in and attempt to get the funds

Like you had enough evidence to bring the case here, enough evidence to suspect the cheque and its supplier were as bent as noodles?

Quote:

Further, I did not attempt to withdrawal those funds or obtain the money.

It's in your account, isn't it? or is it just resting there, a la Father Ted?

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, lots of knowledge doesn't seem to be helping you much either. Go back to the bank and sort it out, for goodness sake.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:14 am

It is possible for a scammer to lose track of his scams. If for example his email address was closed for scamming and he hadn't kept details, that could explain the lack of a request for a WU transfer.
As stated above, please post on of his emails.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:40 pm

If the funds are just "resting" in the OP's bank account, it is still possible that his account is being "held" for that amount despite what the bank is saying. It should not be a dilemma to go sit down with the Bank Manager and go over the situation AGAIN. Being that it was probably money from a scammer, ask the bank what to do.

I was given a check by a well-meaning but financially unstable relative ( by marriage) > eight weeks ago. Despite the bank giving me the funds when I cashed it in person, they "held" that amount and continue to hold even though I asked my CU to have the check writer's bank return the check, that I am "done" with it and will only take cash in future from this debt-owing relative by marriage..

My lesson learned: Do not take checks from well-meaning but mostly insolvent relatives who promise the funds are there.

My lesson trying to sell something on CL: Watch out for scammers that want to give me more than I am asking and want the boat delivered or will pick up at a later date -- IGNORE THEM! Then you won't be in a "pickle"

All IMHO

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:23 pm

Nailgunner wrote:

What are the chances of this being a straight deal?

Quote:

Exactly the same principle applies with checks. If a known forger says “take this check and pay it in and give me 50% “, then I am a criminal if I do it because even though I do not know the check is a dud, I have enough evidence and it is criminally negligent to pay it in and attempt to get the funds

Like you had enough evidence to bring the case here, enough evidence to suspect the cheque and its supplier were as bent as noodles?

Quote:

Further, I did not attempt to withdrawal those funds or obtain the money.

It's in your account, isn't it? or is it just resting there, a la Father Ted?

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, lots of knowledge doesn't seem to be helping you much either. Go back to the bank and sort it out, for goodness sake.

I can do without the heavy sarcasm by the way - we are the good guys and we should be attacking the scammers and not each other.

I have been to the bank twice (two weeks apart) and sat down with them and showed them the papers, and they say the check is genuine and has cleared and they have received funds from the other bank

I am not at all clear what else you want me to do at this stage. Would you draw on your experience to advise the next step please ?

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:31 pm

Hugh R Thaar wrote:

Would you draw on your experience to advise the next step please ?

A mod and a very experienced member have both asked you to post up some of the emails. This can help see exactly what is going on. Obviously this isn't a situation that is commonly seen. So please post up and maybe then we might be able to advise more. Otherwise there is little more we can do.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:39 pm

Hugh R Thaar, I didn't detect any sarcasm in Nailgunner's post. You came asking for input/advice. Members are giving their input/advice. Whether or not you choose to heed said advice, rests solely with you.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:40 pm

^^
Thanks I did PM a mod with details a couple of weeks ago but there were too many to post up.
They did follow the classic scam pattern of being 800 miles away and he paid full price unseen and then he was 'called away' on a middle east contract etc.

I think the idea that it is a scam, but he has lost track of the deal, is a credible possibility.

I think I should just relax now and wait for the end of November. If its a scam then I wont hear from him again and I keep my nice boat. The check will bounce in another few weeks and I will get a $15 charge.

If its genuine he will collect it then

I will post again at the end of November or if the check bounces in another month.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:43 pm

To which Mod did you PM the details?

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:51 pm

Hugh R Thaar wrote:

Thanks I did PM a mod with details a couple of weeks ago but there were too many to post up.

You don't need to share all the emails, just the first couple. It is usually those initial first scripts that give us the best information. Just sharing the 'details' isn't usually going to help us as much.

Hugh, you have to realize that some of us are very experienced in helping victims and working against these scammers. We know what to look for and we know what we need to see. At this point, we need to see some emails and headers for those emails to give you any better advise.

And the mods do talk to each other in their mod lounge, ya know. Wink

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:54 pm

^^ can't find it in my messages but it didn't contain any more info than has come out in the thread subsequently other than the info that the IP address on the emails was Utah, a few miles from his house, which checks with his address, and the address checks out with local realtors whom I called, and the house owner on public records accords with the check. The bank confirms the check is genuine and they have received funds.
The buyers statement that he is engaged in gold prospecting as a hobby fits with my research where I found him and his girlfriend (house co-owner) on the gold prospectors site as a member in 2008. I would think that an identity thief would not know that.

In fact, apart from the classic signs of a scam, everything else in the research and everything in the transaction subsequently, suggests the buyer to be genuine.

I guess there is nothing that can be done right now and the next few months will reveal the truth of the matter

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:02 pm

DoraTheExplorer wrote:

Hugh R Thaar wrote:

Thanks I did PM a mod with details a couple of weeks ago but there were too many to post up.

You don't need to share all the emails, just the first couple. It is usually those initial first scripts that give us the best information. Just sharing the 'details' isn't usually going to help us as much.

Hugh, you have to realize that some of us are very experienced in helping victims and working against these scammers. We know what to look for and we know what we need to see. At this point, we need to see some emails and headers for those emails to give you any better advise.

And the mods do talk to each other in their mod lounge, ya know. Wink

Chuckle - I know you guys are more experienced than me even though I spent 6 years in the police Force as a detective before I changed careers and trained in law. I don't mind submitting to your more specific knowledge as long as I am not called a criminal for paying the check in initially before the other moves took place. That sort of irked me a little, but I am over that and waiting for December.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:12 pm

As it appears your mind is completely set in your decision (and I think it was before you made your first post) and you aren't willing to share the emails and you don't want to believe what any of us are saying and you have been a police officer, a detective, and experienced in the law, what exactly do you want from us? Seems like you just want to talk about your situation and don't really want any advice that is contrary to what your mindset is. Confused

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:27 pm

^^ Dora, all the emails are pretty bland wouldn't reveal anything more and it would be a monster to fish em all out
I got the check the day after I made the sale and before he said he was called away on contract and hold the boat etc etc. I did nothing wrong and it did upset me when people on here said the bank should have called the police on me. I am sure that would upset you.

The only advice I have had on these forums is to go to the bank and I have taken that advice and done it twice and they tell me all is genuine and fine.

I am posting on here because even though I am experienced in legal and criminal matters, I am always willing to seek new ideas and experiences from those whose knowledge is current and who deal with it every day.

My present plan is to just wait until December. If someone suggests another good plan then I would be glad to hear it and I will act on it.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:36 pm

Heres a good plan - post up the emails. Its not like a bunch of posts is going to crash the website here. Its a forum, thats what its for, posting.

You cant be bothered to post the emails, then why should anyone bother with trying to help you? Im surprised everyone has spent as much time as they have with you.

I deal with check lads all the time and nothing is ever this complicated and it sounds like bullshit to me. Also I didnt see where anyone called you a criminal so please point that out too while your at it.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:38 pm

Just to be clear again, we don't need ALL the emails, just the first one or two which can't be that difficult to share. And your opinion of them as 'bland' might not be the same as ours. Plus sharing the full headers can give more information than you might think.

Anyways, I know that Dorothy said to hold off judgement and we do try to be nice here on Eater, but I think you have wasted a lot of good people's time for no good reason.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:38 pm

Hugh R Thaar wrote:

I am posting on here because even though I am experienced in legal and criminal matters, I am always willing to seek new ideas and experiences from those whose knowledge is current and who deal with it every day.

Excuse me for calling that statement bullshit, but it's bullshit.
You've ignored every piece of advice given to you by experienced scam-baiters.

As your actions are not something that we condone here on Eater, I am locking this.
Please don't post anything else regarding a bait where you use your real life details and deposit cheques.

If you have a problem with this, you are free to PM me.

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