Law Enforcement

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Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:58 am

Why dont LE scambait?

Moved from Main - Spot

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:00 am

^^Too busy scamming :yikes:

Baiting Guru Joined: 10 Oct 2003 Posts: 4747

A few may “scam bait” on their own, I think it would be an in agency undercover thing, as part of a bigger mission.

But depending on the country they would be limited in what they could do, a few baiters have used trickery to get a mugu to proceed with the bait. At least in America, the police can’t trick someone into breaking the law.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:12 am

^^^^^^
I think trickery is ok, but entrapment is not, and entrapment is when you try and get someone to commit a crime when they rationally weren't going to, such as an under cover PO as a hooker who approaches a man and coerces him into paying for sex when he wasn't actively looking for a prostitute.

IMHO the most likely answer is that they A. Don't have the budget to sit and talk to the 10000's of scammers out there and B. As has been stated on this forum, fraud related crimes are only crimes when actual money/cheques etc changes hands. Can you imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to get in to Nigeria and find shorty?

International busts actually take alot of politics, money, and choreography...it's probably not worth it taking down Rev.James Philistine when he will promptly be replaced in a matter of seconds.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:28 am

There are few agencies who handle international crimes, the C.I.A. is too busy.

Political remark snipped - RC

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:21 pm

1 bloke/chick (politically correct) in Nigeria for 1 month with political immunity and a background in SB... How much was lost from "our" economy last year? Or does it justify too many jobs?
If they said "Osama" or "C4" it would be a different story.
Too hard or Too much work is my question

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:59 pm

It has been sayed that 419 scamming is not a crime unless money is given, c'mon, attempted theft is not a crime?

also, I would like to know why political statements are not allowed here

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:27 pm

Boris_YELLsome wrote:

such as an under cover PO as a hooker who approaches a man and coerces him into paying for sex when he wasn't actively looking for a prostitute.

That is not entrapment. It's done all the time. You had the right idea when you said

Quote:

get someone to commit a crime when they rationally weren't going to

But it's not rationally weren't, it's rationally wouldn't. Someone not looking to commit a crime would not pay for sex just because he was approached. However, I and not too sure what you mean by coerces. Merely being propositioned by a UC cop is not entrapment. If she offered sex for 25¢ then he might have an entrapment defense.

A typical and documented case of entrapment is when a UC approaches a known drug addict and tells him he is sick with withdrawal and needs drugs. The addict knows what it is like to withdrawal and it's not something he would wish on his worse enemy. The addict who isn't in possess of drugs to sell, goes to his connection and pinches of a bit for himself and helps the other guy to stay well. In this case, the addict wouldn't normally sell drugs and did so because he gets free drugs (to stay well) and helps keep someone from going through agony.

Regarding the prostitution thing. The UC cops only go to locations that are known for prostitution. If someone not looking for a hooker just ended up there he wouldn't pay for sex just because he was approached.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:46 pm

One person in nigeria would be like pissing into the wind, it's not a crime there to buy something online using a stolen credit card, they're not going to say "Hey America/UK/whoever come and arrest people'. I think T.V. gives us this impression that countries just hop over to each other and arrest criminals...they really don't, S.Africa for a start has had a couple of people wanted for war crimes and by interpol, and no dice.

For example,at the moment America is facing a government shut down because of a non-agreement on government spending/budget...419 scams are a low priority to them.

Different countries have different laws for fraud, a 419 scam might be seen (until money has passed hands) as attempted fraud, fair enough that may be a crime, but would you rather them spend money on catching pedophiles in and around the area, putting down drug dealers, or spending half the national budget to fly to Nigeria to catch lads?

Also as bad as this may sound, terrorists kill groups of people and cause mass panic, I know people's lives are destroyed by scammers, but when you only have so much money to spend, where are you going to invest it? The one guy who lost $10 000, or stopping the possible nuclear bomb?

Pedophiles,drugs,terrorists etc > 419

I think they should have an active budget that helps educate people on being safe online, as this really is the master turn key for these scams, people being unaware. All education always seems as an after though to me, a mail from your bank, a mail from your ISP, there never seems to be active education, with people being given examples, and taught.

As for local fraud, I do see countries being as successful as they can be within their own countries, they still arrest and charge people for fraud.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:50 pm

*and before anyone thinks I'm heartless. My mother has been scammed twice, and lost a shit ton of money, and spiraled into depression and self-destruction, from which she is only really starting to recover from now. But if my government had a limited budget, I'd rather they were spending it on catching child rapists and murderers.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:04 pm

Ghost wrote:

Tamatoes, tomatoes

By coercion that's what I meant, a UC finds a guy at a bar, and see's that he is lonely, convinces him that he needs a hooker. I'm pretty sure that would be entrapment.

Sorry I just meant that LE are allowed to bait, they do it with sexual predators, they are allowed to pose as X. Having a hooker stand at a known corner is posing as X. So if LE was to bait, it would be the same...the scammer is already wanting to commit a crime, just as a predator would, or a john, it was just an answer to...

Quote:

At least in America, the police can’t trick someone into breaking the law.

They can trick them, if they were already wanting to break the law. Scammers are already wanting to break the law, so the LE would be able to bait.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:54 pm

Jim Threads that become political will get locked. Political discussions are not tolerated as they can become quite heated. Whilst everyone has a right to freedom of speech, certain speech on these forums isn't tolerated.

Sorry I could not find the specific link where that is noted. Maybe a MOD knows. Sometimes I don't get the words right in searching. Confused

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:54 pm

Jim Morrison wrote:

also, I would like to know why political statements are not allowed here

Because they are against the forum rules. Besides that, isn't obvious? Political statements lead to political discussions. Political discussions always lead to arguing, mud slinging, shit stirring and insults. Discussing politics never ends well and turns people into enemies.

No politics or religion, just like at the dinner table when every member of you family and extended family is present.

Morgain Le Fay wrote:

Whilst everyone has a right to freedom of speech

This is privately owned board. The right to free speech doesn't apply. Not that someone can't voice an opining, well that is unless it breaks the rules. Trust me, if politics were allows this place would turn in to a hate or flaming board. Besides, this is after all a baiting site. There are plenty of other boards where you can discuss politics. Yes, I know GC is GC but again this place would end up a flaming board.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:51 pm

^^ Actually what I said I thought would cover what is not allowed here.

Quote:

Whilst everyone has a right to freedom of speech, certain speech on these forums isn't tolerated.

Apologies for not articulating it to make the meaning more clear as you did Ghost.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:14 pm

OK, understood

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:05 pm

My 2 cents:

Most 419 scams are perpetrated in nations where law enforcement is weak, ineffectual and disinterested (ex: Nigeria).

Other 419 scams are perpetrated in nations with effective law enforcement (think Holland) but cross national or other jurisdictional lines, making prosecution difficult.

Even for those 419 scams perpetrated in a country with effective law enforcement, the police have much more pressing "local" law enforcement matters to deal with.

Conclusion: Law enforcement may not be disinterested, but is frequently ineffectual in dealing with 419 scammers.

Bruin

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:40 pm

Also, police are generally NOT interested in any sort of fraudulent emails unless money has been sent - ie until there is a victim, its a victimless crime, which is nothing to do with them.

If I tried to defraud my bank, say, but failed, or if I was an incompetent thief, would they take the same attitude I wonder?

Baiting Guru Joined: 10 Oct 2003 Posts: 4747

The way I intentioned to use it, trickery = entrapment. I have seen people have kittens because their mugu isn’t responding and then resort into whatever to get them to respond. This is a sure sign you’re baiting too few mugus. Maybe they are in jail, gotten beaten senseless are promising his friends big money, or whatever.

I guess if I had found out the cops just scam baited 419’ers I would be a little pissed. Not jealousy but what a huge amount of time and resources it would be.

I would like to see people higher up in the 419 “food chain” get busted. Just busting the nitwits who send out the letters etc would be pointless. But if we could start busting the syndicates behind them, that might do some damage.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:50 pm

For all the reasons listed already it just reminds why it is important to do what we do. There is a reason why our catchers are filled with emails. The lads know chances of getting prosecuted are slim to none.

As far as LE baiting to gain arrest it would be a fruitless effort and huge waste of resources. Just the geography alone makes it impossible to prosecute in most case.

Where I do wonder if it would be helpful for LE or Government to get involved is regulating some of the medias the scammers work through such as the social network sites and classified sites. This may be a daunting task in itself but in my opinion the sites are left to govern themselves and could use a little more regulating and accountability.

The simplest solution is education and if I had my rathers this is where I would like the resources to go as Boris mentioned.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:06 pm

buried under 419 emails: sorry I misunderstood Embarassed

-
And I guess sorry for my wall of text, you guys seemed to have said similar in one post , I better abstain from the coffee (again) Shocked

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What we need is Chris Hansen : "How to catch a mugu"
Can you imagine the replies to "Can you tell us what you're doing here today?" "Did you bring the brief case?" "And when you said 'I am an old lady', what did you mean?"

Laughing

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:32 pm

The LE does not have the money and the manpower to be effective againt child ponographie and they should scambait???
Honestly I don't want to pay policemen to write emails to scammers.
They can do many things that make the country (and the world is not their business) a better place. I would like to see a real cybercrime unit in germany going for ebay fraud and similar things, but scambaiting isn't a thing they should do.
We would see sig lines full of badges if the chance to get a scammer arrested would be more than teeny.
We have baiters here with big talent and hugh experience and they are doing it for free, there is no need for LE to mess with 419 lads.
Even if a excelent baiter is a policeman, how should he manage to arrest a lad in Nigeria or Ghana?
Scambaiting is a job for Scambaiters, so back to baiting my friends.

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:26 pm

K, anyone ever seen what goes into a extradition warrant to get a major criminal to another "civilized" country? Expensive in itself not including task force budgeting.

While AFF is a problem and costs a lot in itself to victims, it is hard to convince a govenrment to let one of it's citizens be taken to a different country to be prosecuted.

LE would more then be happy to go after all the baddies they could if there were unlimited funds and an open crimial justice system.

This is degrading into a somewhat informative but redundant thread. Maybe search would have found this thread's older siblings?

Not trying to be disparraging but LE can only do so much, that's why we have entertainment.

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:43 pm

@ Baitsamurai

Quote:

We have baiters here with big talent and hugh experience and they are doing it for free, there is no need for LE to mess with 419 lads.
Even if a excelent baiter is a policeman, how should he manage to arrest a lad in Nigeria or Ghana?
Scambaiting is a job for Scambaiters, so back to baiting my friends.

Well said sir !

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:51 pm

Knackers wrote:

Why dont LE scambait?

What makes you think we don't have LE members here?

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:38 pm

Not many people know this but our founder, Shiver, was actually a CIA operative.
His codename was "Dusty Flea".

Of course, since then, we've been taken over by the South African Secret Service.

Wee Sterk!!!