Want to Bait, but My Conscience Gets in the Way. Please help

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Hello I'm New here! Joined: 16 May 2010 Posts: 7

Hi everyone,

I'd like to start baiting, since it sounds like fun, but something gets in the way:

Rationally, I understand that these lads are taking money from honest (but clueless) people, and that bad experiences like fruitless safaris may make them think twice before doing so.

But when I read the baiting stories, especially the safari ones, I can't help but feel bad for the lads. I keep thinking about how the person at the other end (the lad) is a human being. Maybe he was was excited about finally having money to pay for his child's schooling, and is now traveling back home, depressed and empty handed. And it would all be because of me.

Of course, he's disappointed because his crime against an innocent person (who maybe wanted to use that money for his own kids) didn't work, but my conscience keeps tugging at me anyway. It makes me think that it's better to just spam people with educational emails telling potential victims not to respond to these 419 emails. On the other hand, I can see why it makes sense to hit the scammers where it hurts.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm wondering if anyone else has felt this way? If you have any arguments that would make me feel less guilty about doing this, please let me know.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:59 pm

There was a baiter here who once pretended to be a father with a child dying of cancer. He had a choice between sending the money to the scammer or using it for the treatment that would save the life of his child. I'm sure you can guess which one the scammer thought was the best idea.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:01 pm

Baiting allows us to gather operational information about how they work, background information about their circumstances, environment and motivation, and time-critical information like their most recent formats, new and unusual scams, and such like. We can also sometimes glean information on real life victims, and act in their best interests. But most of the time it's sheer harrasment of the lads, which is immensely satisfying. A lot of the other stuff just comes our way as baits progress.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:07 pm

Usually when I have the same thoughts I read stories like this

http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27342

Scammers still a small minority in Africa (probably less than 0.03%)

They are well-educated, and better-off than most African people and they have no sense of morality

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:18 pm

Welcome to Eater, LP9. Very Happy

In my opinion it's always wise not to do anything that makes you feel guilty. You can find other ways to fight. Warning potential victims is a great idea. If you are still tempted into baiting, have a look on the site killing and phone baiting forums. There could be something for you.

Safaris are only a tiny minority of all baiting. Thousands of lad hours are killed by baiters who don't do anything upsetting and who act like any victim who eventually just refuses to pay. If you think that lads appreciate that, you are wrong. They are equally angry and rude to anyone who hasn't rewarded their "work" by visiting a Western Union office.

I'm afraid there are probably also victims who send money to scammers because they feel sorry for them. Those emotions should be expressed to people who need and appreciate them. The world is full of needy. Why on earth should we feel pity for anyone who tells ugly lies and steals from ordinary, hard-working (and often poor) people to feed his/her children?

Personally I think my lads should thank me for keeping them away from sinning if they don't have time to commit crimes while communicating with me. A safari won't hurt either. A sad fact is that even the most pathetic lads go on scamming while being safaried. Whatever they tell about their "sufferings", it is usually lies, lies and lies. Moreover, if they really met a character of mine in a remote destination somewhere in Africa, they wouldn't hesitate to rob her (and sometimes also rape her and kill her). So I don't see why I should feel sorry if that sort of guys travel a bit without getting "their" monies. No money they haven't earned working honestly belongs to them anyway.

In many countries conspiracy is also a crime. So, if someone is planning to steal or kill, that means there is already a crime. If you feel sorry for a scammer who hasn't been able to commit a crime because there were only some baiter monies to get, you still feel sorry for a (potential) criminal. Is it really necessary? I don't think so. Read real victims stories and you see who needs your sympathy.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 16 May 2010 Posts: 7

Thanks for your responses, everyone. I would have no problems with wasting the scammers' time by making them fill out forms, etc. After all, they spend their days writing anyways; since even scammers have only 24 hours in a day, this means they're wasting time that would otherwise be spend reaching actual victims. I also have no issues getting fake bank account websites, etc. out of them.

There's something about the safari element, about making them go somewhere and spend money, that doesn't feel right to me. That's is a personal thing though.

To the person who posted the RomanceScam story, thanks. I'm guessing that many of the victims are elderly, which makes these scams doubly disgusting.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:40 pm

See? You just found your niche. Wink

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:56 pm

LovePotion9 wrote:

Maybe he was was excited about finally having money to pay for his child's schooling, and is now traveling back home, depressed and empty handed.

In this hypothetical scenario, all I can really say is: If he cares so much about his child's schooling, he would pay for it by doing honest work.

I only consider the lads as human when I'm trying to figure out how best to respond to them. Beyond that, they're little more than scum.

If you're looking for an "excuse" to not feel sorry for them, just consider this. They wouldn't feel sorry for you. The story that SSA mentioned in the first response has been redone MANY times by MANY baiters on MANY lads. The results never change.

Welcome to the world of baiting. Smile

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:08 am

LovePotion9 wrote:

There's something about the safari element, about making them go somewhere and spend money, that doesn't feel right to me. That's is a personal thing though.

Really, you don't have to become a devoted safari baiter. Smile

I just want to tell you something.

A man from my country met a scammer on the Internet and travelled to Africa to meet him. The scammer or someone from his gang killed him. Nobody was arrested. Obviously the scammer had to leave the cafe to meet the victim. Maybe he even travelled some 200 kilometres to commit his crime. He probably spent some money too. He took a huge risk and maybe he didn't mean to kill in the first hand. What happened to him, we don't know but we can assume he is quite happy with the money he scammed from the victim who is missed by his family.

So are we to blame on the victim who didn't just transfer the funds to the scammer? Wouldn't it be fair if scammers could just sit in the cafe and spend a minimum amount of their stolen monies for their activities, without having to go out for a while? They can even hurt their ankle when walking in the street or feel sick when taking a bus to the neighbouring country. Poor bois. Maybe we should start warning them about bad people like SlapHappy, Bohigal or GomerPyle who lie to them and make them hit the road...

Anyway, if you give it a try, bait safe and have fun. Smile

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:34 am

Wayne.Dwops will tell you of one of his lads who specialized in scamming disabled people... does need more be said.

That lad has been given very special treatment indeed.

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:39 am

Nailgunner wrote:

We can also sometimes glean information on real life victims, and act in their best interests.

This is interesting. How can I recognize such a scenario and what's the best course of action when I do? After all, this is why we bait, right?

EP

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:45 am

As someone said, there is no requirement to send your lad on a safari. You can bait quite well end effectively without it. There are many aspects of baiting that you could try out that don't include the safaris. You can collect fake cheques from lads and get them out of the victim's hands and into the paper shredd3er. You can become a fake bank killer.

Each individual baiter eventually finds their niche, you just have to find yours.

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:45 am

If you are told to wire money to a bank account, report the account to Alan and the authorities will often check to see if the person using the account is cooperating with the scammers. If you are told to wire the money to a person using Western Union or Moneygram, it could very well be a mule the scammers are using. Report that information to the mods and they will pass it on the appropriate parties.

I can tell you that through scamwarners.com and information that we have gathered here, there's been at least hundreds of people saved from sending money and every once in awhile, an arrest.

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:15 am

LovePotion9 wrote:

There's something about the safari element, about making them go somewhere and spend money, that doesn't feel right to me. That's is a personal thing though.

Welcome to Eater, LP9! Very Happy

I respect your ethical boundaries and certainly encourage you to only do that which will not result in feelings of guilt. However, I must mention that the lads take to the road on safaris by their own free will. Baiters offer them incentives, certainly, but no one is forcing travel upon them.

Okay, I've said my piece. Read the stickies, visit Eater University, and sign up for a mentor so you can hit the ground running. Very Happy

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:16 am

LovePotion9

Yes, the first lad I sent on safari and his desperate mails bothered me. But I only came in contact with him because he was trying trying to scam me. He gave up his scam and admitted to being a thief (scammer) to go on safari to gain more money.

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:36 am

BluthBanana wrote:

However, I must mention that the lads take to the road on safaris by their own free will. Baiters offer them incentives, certainly, but no one is forcing travel upon them.

I think this is a very important point. If at any point the lad made the choice NOT to do this, they could walk away. All a baiter is offering is the same hope that the lad offers a real victim.

I have only one safari, and I am proud of it, simply because it got my lad out of the cafe for a few days and he wasn't sending more mail to innocent vics.

kudos to you for raising the issue. I hope that some of the answers in the thread can convince you that whilst you might not want to do it, there is no shame in getting a lad to move.

Welcome to Eater!

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Welcome to Eater. Very Happy

For a new baiter, I can completely understand how it can feel a bit bad to manipulate another human. When I was brand new I remember watching a lad spend all day trying to retrieve fake info from a baiter site. He'd email me in between, trying calling my k-7 number and try the site again. It was like watching a hamster in wheel and I did have twinges of guilt.
Since then, I have baited a lot. I've told scammers that if I send them money I won't have money for family members' medical needs and they will die; the scammers don't care. I recently baited as a three year old genius, didn't matter to the scammer.
I've also seen many other baiters' "how low will they go?" type of baits. Guess what? The result is always the same, send the money.
Beyond that, I've spent lots and lots of time talking to victims via ScamWarners. Victims have been suicidal and the scammers don't care, just tell them to quit whining and send money.
I talked to an elderly woman victim recently who had lost her home, her car and her husband of many years had killed himself a few months ago over all they had lost.
I've seen pictures of scammers driving Mercedes and with a bunch of expensive computers, jewelry, clothing, etc.
Now do I feel any guilt at all in scammers being sent on safari, tatooed or mentally tortured? Nope. Anything we can do via email is nil compared to the damage they wreak on victims.

Regardless of what we tell you, it will take a bit of time of seeing what the lads really do for you to understand all of this first hand. Maybe you'll always be uncomfortable with safaris. That's perfectly fine, never do anything you're uncomfortable with. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of other ways to join the fight. I'm not a safari baiter and probably never will be, but I still have a valuable contribution here.

Lastly, please see this link for information on some victims' stories: http://www.scam-info-links.info/scam_victim_news.html

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 16 May 2010 Posts: 7

I'm going to threadjack my own thread for one second:

I just read the "Free Pastor Frank" thread. I can't tell from the thread whether the whole thing is a joke, or whether PF was actually put in jail. From some of the mod's reassurances, it sounds like this actually did happen.

I looked through PF's posts but found no followup. If there was an update thread, could someone give me a link to it? For someone getting into baiting, this is a bit scary.

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:20 am

Pastor Frank is a good man.... ok im lying he is the complete opposite, but to have things turn out so bad for him is a truly sad tale, PF does all his baiting from behind iron bars now days. I think he only has 4 years left on his sentence, 2.5 with good behaviour.

Edit.... also you have a pm LP

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:27 am

LovePotion9 wrote:

I'm going to threadjack my own thread for one second:

I just read the "Free Pastor Frank" thread. I can't tell from the thread whether the whole thing is a joke, or whether PF was actually put in jail. From some of the mod's reassurances, it sounds like this actually did happen.

I looked through PF's posts but found no followup. If there was an update thread, could someone give me a link to it? For someone getting into baiting, this is a bit scary.

I dont believe it was a joke.
Pastor Frank, as said, is a good man, he fights liars, he have no reason to lie about such thing. Wink

But that's history and I dont know how comfortable PF is about this topic ...

Anyways i dont know if anyone mentioned it - but scammers are succesful in the things they do. They steal incredible amount of money worldwide every year! Also, often they work from internet cafes. Well I bet someone with starving children cant afford things like internet connection in the local cafe, right?

Also, when I saw pictures of their houses and stuff its incredible how much they have already stolen. they have plasma tvs, computers, leather sofa's, dress in fine suits and wear rolex. Wink

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:12 am

If baiting lads is too much, perhaps you should try www.knittingforums.com Wink

Come on now... People join a scambaiting site to bait scammers.

You should try a bait and only push it to YOUR limits and no further than you feel comfortable with, at least dive in and see WHERE your boundaries are. Play this game by your rules and find your niche in this game

You might surprise yourself and become the most ruthless baiter around.

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:04 am

Welcome here Lovepotion9.

You made quite an entrance with starting an ethics thread. Wink

All has been said already, so i can only say bait safe, sign up for a mentor and have fun baiting! Just go as far as you want to go without regrets, but i have to warn you, this can be addictive.

ps, don't mention Pastor Frank too much, his inmates don't know he's a baiter.

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:05 am

Mr Biggs wrote:

If baiting lads is too much, perhaps you should try www.knittingforums.com

Come on now... People join a scambaiting site to bait scammers.

I know that the wink implies humour - but I'm still not comfortable with that.

I baited for a year before I met Eater, and I went round in circles of guilt. When I first came to Eater, I read every thread about ethics that I could find. It was important to me.

I hated scammers - but I just wasn't sure if baiting was the 'right' response. I still registered here. I still, despite my reservations, baited. It probably took me about six weeks to feel wholehearted. And that was helped along by the Lad who (like the examples above) told my character to forget her life-saving cancer treatment and send the money to him instead. He told her that 'God had told him that she would live' only if she sent the money. Oh, and the Lad who patiently gave step-by-step instructions to my brain-damaged character about how to withdraw his thousands of pounds of compensation money from his bank account and how to send it to the Lad by Western Union.

It's OK to think things through properly. And OK to set one's own limits, if necessary.

And OK to realise later that there are lots of reasons to feel angry - and no reasons to feel guilt.

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:28 am

I don't know what I can add that hasn't already been said above.
The title of your post begins "Want to bait".

Here's an idea for you LP9. See if you can convert a Lad, get him to quit scamming, go straight and get a real job. Think it's possible?
Remember, scambaiting=crime-fighting. Playing the "victim" keeps them
away from real victims.

Some of the main purposes of baiting are:
1.to DE-educate,2. sow distrust among the scammers by dolla-chop,
and 3. do whatever it takes to see that 419 is a real bad way of life.

Good Luck with whatever you decide LP9.

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:48 am

Have you read the ethics sticky two topics above this one?
http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32877
It covers the points you raised. But as others have said, only do what you are comfortable with.
I've baited a "hired killer" as a 10 year old girl. Another scammer is after her $30,000 trust fund. They're all scum.

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