Debate About Sending Fake IDs

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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:30 am

This came up recently in my post the other day in the Help forum. I hope this isn't considered a double post, but I figured it was worthy of it's own topic discussion in the Main Forum (versus just the debate about how to handle my current lad). I know we discourage sending the lads fake IDs, and I am well aware of the fact that what might seem like a funny ID to you, could be conceived as real to someone else. However, I have an alternative way to look at it. (I am not saying I am 100% convinced this way of thinking is right, but I figured it was worthy of being opened up to discussion to the veteran baiters in this forum) Anyways, I am going to copy/paste (with some minor editing) a portion of one of my posts in my specific help forum and would love to get some feedback on it:

"Also, I have some food for thought. I agree 100% about not sending lads genuine looking fake IDs that could easily fool a high percentage of people, but couldn't you consider sending a ridiculous fake ID almost a form of de-education? In other words, let's say a lad decides he wants to use a fake form of ID in his scam. Isn't it better that he steals a ridiculous one that most people would recognize as being such, versus nabbing one off of Google Images or even paying someone to make a more legit looking one? I do understand 100% about what's ridiculous to one person could easily fool another. Just saying that perhaps a silly fake ID that a lad steals from a baiter would be more likely to foil a real scam, versus the lad finding a better fake ID which could enhance a real scam."

I am not trying to be a know-it-all by any means, I am just wondering what thoughts on that above paragraph in quotations are? Make sense? Disagree? Why or why not?

Master of Master Baiters Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 503

I've just had a copy of a real US passport sent to me by a lad. I'm guessing he got it from one of his scams.

Whether you send ID or not it is almost inconsequential, because whatever you send them due to the number of scams they are sending out it is likely that they will get hold of a real piece of ID eventually and can modify their scam accordingly.

Fortunately most lads can't tell the difference or what to look for on ID. But I have had several lads send me real ID that they have gotten hold of and that becomes more worrying especially when they know it's good and real, they are the brighter ones.

Most lads only want to ID to prove that you are a real person and not a potential joker or baiter.

It is better to send them nothing, because, as has been mentioned, what we realise is rubbish others may not.

I had to look long and hard at this US passport to figure out if it was real or not because ID (passports in particular) change from time to time.

In the past I worked a lot in real life with forged documents that were used for specific "scams" and when you see the good fakes in real life it can be really hard to spot the differences. Sending someone a scan can often lead to them thinking it's real because it is a scan and they expect it to be a little unclear and all that unhidden and hidden document protection cannot be examined.

The answer, in my opinion and others may not share it, is don't give any lad ammunition to use against anyone else. The world is a big place and people don't always see what we see.

Do you know what an Afghan passport looks like or a South American one, I don't. If I saw one in real life I would know what to look for but sending a scan of one, real or not, could be playing into a scammers hands even if you sent them something that was ridiculous. It still might be better than what they have now.

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:11 am

This discussion comes back once in a while, and the outcome is always thesame. We do not help them with ID. You are talking about a silly ID of some sort, and maybe you had an ID of Donald Duck from Ducktown in mind. That could make "westerners" wary that a lad is trying to scam them if the victim looks at the ID properly, which in a lot of cases doesn't happen. But for people in the east like India, Malaysia, Philipines etcetera, it wouldn't work and they take the ID for real. We don't do it, period.

edit to make my post more clear, lads recycle almost everything you sent them, including crap ID

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 8:23 am

I guess it's more fun to let your pet do all the work

what seems a de-education to you may fool some victims

plus where is the challenge if you follow what your lad tell you

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 10:59 am

I always go by the logic "if it can fool a lad, it can fool a vic".

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:17 am

While I agree it is possible for a scammer to get their hands on real IDs, I wouldn't be feeling quite so good if I found that the fake ID I sent a lad managed to help him to scam somebody, to me, it is not worth the risk.

As others have said, not actually providing an ID is a baiting skill and one that all baiters will need to learn.

Take a close look at this ID and see if you think it would fool anyone;

You have;
The name which is obviously pasted in
the picture that if you look close enough on the right hand side you can actually make out the edge of the photo below
The date of birth which makes the man in the picture 63 year old
Occupation: Pottus
religion: Bohemian
Wt (weight) lite
Hair: Grey
Eyes: Shifty

Then there is a website at the bottom

Once you have made up your mind, take a look here http://www.scamwarners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=8726&p=28110#p28110

I wont spoil the surprise with any further comment Wink

Just adding, I once had to send a copy of my passport to somebody in my real life, while I trusted the organisation I sent it to I wasn't going to take any chances of it ending up getting misused so before sending, I wrote on the copy "Passport sent to (name of organaisation I sent it to)

I am not going to take any chances Wink

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:56 am

Keep in mind that picture of Telly savalas has proven to be working at all. Laughing

But yeah, skilled baiter can avoid sending ID completely.
Here are my favorite methods to deal with it

It's illegal in our country to send out form (unless you fill form)
I send details from the ID written - "Here is info from my ID. Name: blah blah blag"
I send passport.jpg which is completely working for me.
I don't send ID's which are hard to read, or "broken" much, unless i want to delay the situation when we discuss how to make the ID working.

The first two are probably my most favorite.
You know, most newbie baiters freak out, when they need to send ID. I used to do the same. But for baiting purposes it's very useful situation. Sending details/ID is mostly first or second part of the script, so you can make BIG delay in very beginning.

And speaking of "believing fake passport". We wont believe. Because we already know they're tricks. But lots of people may acutally believe complete crap just because it sounds good for them/they're desperate or simply not aware of danger.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 30 Apr 2010 Posts: 42

I've just started, but I send a ridiculous ID that is my 'work' ID.

Most scammers buy it, it appears to have my address on it, and that's all they seem to want. I've never had it questioned, I've actually had subtle threats over it; as now they tell me they know where I live.

I understand and completely agree that avoiding sending any ID to a lad at all is a good skill, and it is rarely difficult to accomplish, but my opinion (for what it's worth), is that giving them a less official looking one to go with is better than not. Because it is very easy to get an official looking ID. But they are lazy enough not to do it, and would probably rather send the fake one that I take time to make to look ridiculous. So I think it is better to have the chance someone sees my ridiculous one as fake, then them actually coming across a more official looking one to use.

Do you really think that Lads sending an ID, however well done, is the difference between a real victim falling for the scam, or not? It seems to me if the victim is believing everything else, that an ID is not going to make or break the scam.

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:35 pm

Lad dont need ID from you. It's for the show. Its to convince the victim they are serious organisation and they have all those thing involved.
Like ID's.

When the victim sends money its success. When sends even nice quality passport it will be most likely sold or reused. Therefor its making it nice bonus.

They complain about not getting ID just to play their role well.

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:00 pm

"Eyes: Shifty". Laughing

That just made my morning. Of course, we don't have a National ID here in the States but would someone in say, Thailand know that? Probably not.

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:08 pm

I haven't known either, before I started baiting. And I am from Europe. Wink

So yeah... people who are naive and dont know stuff are main targets of scammers.

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:35 pm

@ Billburps: Let me put it this way. When you send a lad your crappy ID, you're providing the lad a tool for scamming victims. There will
be victims buying it. How would you feel if you read a heartbreaking story of a victim that has lost everything because of a scammer, and you see that this scammer has used your crappy ID.

419Eater is my life Joined: 17 Apr 2010 Posts: 279

well it's usually in the beginning of a bait that the ID request comes up. The baiter has nothing invested in this bait, maybe a couple emails. So just tell him NO. the baiter doesn't lose anything. There's plenty more where that lad came from.

The scammer will lose a potential victim. Will he drop you over this? Probably not, what good does that do for him? He gets nothing. and There's plenty more where that lad came from.

Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 10:00 pm

BillBurbs, Welcome to Eater! I think you will find that most of us here realize that our "job" is to keep scammers away from real victims. We do that by not complying with their demands, getting them off script, getting them to focus on us instead of victims, even sending them on safaris.

While we have fun at the same time, we do try to be mindful of any action we might take that would make the scammer better at his criminal activities. This includes de-educating then as often as possible and not sending anything that potentially could be used to trick a victim further.

Regardless of how ridiculous you think your ID might be, it can be used to trick a victim. A victim who might not look at it with critical or knowing eyes. A victim who might not speak English or know some of the fun things you put into the ID.

Eater has a Mentor program to help understand some of these elements of baiting on a one to one basis. I encourage you to sign up for a Mentor to help guide you into the baiter hall of fame. Click on the link in my signature or look on the Index page. It is in Eater Orange.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:13 am

Another way that you could look as it is that if the lad insists on getting your ID, and you say no way, no how, and he drops you, he may figure he has dropped a legitimate maga. Maybe in the future he gets wary of being so insistent on the ID.

As someone said, they're looking for stuff that they can use on other victims, but they are also trying to assure themselves that you are for real. Another way to get around this is through a phone call. Give them a K7 number that they can call, or spend a few cents on Skype and give them a quick call that "gets cut off" by his local service. Once he has voice contact with you, he will be less likely to drop you.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:43 am

How is a ridiculous fake ID much different than a ridiculous fake opening script that some lads have been de-educated into using? It seems that providing the lads with ridiculous scripts is encouraged on 419eater, but couldn't you also argue that the "ridiculous" script might actually fool somebody else and contribute to a scam?

Personally, it seems to me that a ridiculous script would cause most people to realize something wasn't right in the proposal they received, much like receiving a ridiculous ID from a lad would tip off most people that something wasn't right.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:33 am

The problem is that what may seem ridiculous to you will not seem ridiculous to a potential victim in India, Malaysia, Dubai, or somewhere else. You may recognize the picture or name of a celebrity, or some ridiculous comment like "Sex: As often as possible" But to some real victim an authentic-looking ID may look real enough that they won't read it, and they certainly won't recognize some celebrity unknown in their own culture. It's not disinformation at all, it's giving lads ammunition.

A few years ago a baiter created a totally ridiculous passport in the name of "Wang Qing." Hilarious. Except that now it is part of the lad starter kit. I've gotten it dozens of times from various lads. The joke flies way over the head of 99% of victims.

Bottom line: what seems like an obvious joke to you is not necessarily obvious to someone in another culture. Why give the lads anything they could even possibly recycle on real victims?

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:09 am

Juan Freizwidatt wrote:

Bottom line: what seems like an obvious joke to you is not necessarily obvious to someone in another culture. Why give the lads anything they could even possibly recycle on real victims?

Nicely said, thats why baiters should never send ID's.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:16 am

Hi All,

Just wanted to illustrate my point of how easy it is to manipulate even a ridiculous ID to make it look real.

Problem is I can't work out how to include the image on this post.

Cheers

Baiting Guru Joined: 10 Oct 2003 Posts: 4747

A few things on ID’s or my opinion on them

I never comply to a lads first request, ignore it. Then on the second request I lie . The mugu isn’t over your shoulder (or he shouldn’t be) when your replying to him. so he can't say what you sent

There are a number of tricks mugu’s use to pave the way to compelling you to send an ID. They send theirs or other personal information. Immediately slap them and proclaim the internet is not the place to be sending such information.

Always get a phone number first, before you “send” anything. How else are going to chastise the mugu for losing your ID? If they refuse, refuse to send your ID, fair is fair right?

Overall, not sending an ID won’t end scams, and their might be an occasion it needed, really needed. They I guess its up to the baiter, just do what you can to limit the mugus reuse of it.

Not sending ID’s will not end this scam, some 419 gangs are large and 419 is only a part of the gangs actions as a whole, they also do things like human trafficking, so falsifying documents would be that hard.

I haven’t sent an ID in years (due to different tactics), but, I can’t tell everyone how to run their baits. I think we can only make people aware, and urge them to always use EXTREME caution.

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:30 pm

Never gets old PF. Laughing

Not quite a Newb Joined: 30 Apr 2010 Posts: 42

My argument though, is that it is only a google search away for them to find a decent! fake ID.
If I send them a stupid one, which they think came from an actual victim, and they reuse it, isn't the chance that my silly one will warn real potential victims better than them using a much better one that anyone can find with a .5 second Google Image Search?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just think giving them a silly ID, which they believe is real, will actually lower the percentage of victims that they are able to scam, as oppose to raising it. Sure theres the chance they could use it to fool a victim, but I think the probability is higher that it will scare off more than it will reel in. I'm just looking at it like odds in gambling.

edit: I certainly wouldn't send anything higher quality than they send me, and I've had them send me some really good ones, that you have to zoom in on to see the different fonts, etc.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:49 pm

Hi Bill!
You have been given excellent advice in this topic. Please take a moment to reread what folks here have had to say. Bottom line: we never send any ID, unless it's so poorly scanned that it's unreadable.

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:24 pm

The wonderfully articulate mrsbean covered this topic in detail a few years ago:

Quote:

Mrsbean's Really Quite Officially Unofficial Passport/ID Cut 'n' Paste FAQ and Guide (Illustrated)

So you think you need a passport or a fake ID, eh? No, my friend, you don't. And I'm here to tell you why, and how to have tons more fun and drag your baits out for eons by NOT sending an ID than you could ever have sending a silly little fake ID featuring Mario Andretti, King Kong, or Paris Hilton. Really. Look at my... uh... avatar. (Haven't shown my face around here. Just my cleavage.) Would I lie?

Q: Why is it not recommended, this sending a scammer a fake ID?

A: Well, first of all, where's the fun in doing what the scammer wants? If you do everything he asks, then he's in control, not you. And baiting is all about the baiter controlling the scammer, not the other way around. Half the fun of baiting is keeping a lad hanging on for eons without ever actually doing much. Remember, efficiency is only intelligent laziness. Baiting is turning intelligent laziness into an art form. You can take a stubborn insistence for an ID and stretch it out for yonks. Without ever giving the lad any satisfaction. Be a tease. It's fun.

Second, let's think about what lads are for a moment. They're criminals, aren't they? Opportunistic criminals. Lazy criminals. Who don't usually do their own Photoshopping. If they want a half decent fake ID, they have to either figure out how to track one down on the web, thereby wasting precious time and money and risking a real victim stumbling across the ID they used, or bribe someone at the passport office for a physical fake, or pay the local Photoshop expert for a digital fake. Why make it easier for them by serving them up a big, fat, lovely softball of a fake ID that they only have to download and resend to other victims? Make the lads work for it, at least. Make him spend a bit of his dosh surfing for something appropriate.

Q: But- but- mine's going to be really funny! And it's going to feature (insert tremendously famous person's name here) with my silly baiting name! And it doesn't match a real license/passport! Any victim would know it's a fake, wouldn't they?

A: No. No they wouldn't. Look at it this way. You're expecting your lad to accept this ID as 'real', correct? Well, lads are not some special species rendered incapable of recognizing fake IDs or celebrities by some quirk of nature or by the decision to go into scamming. If your lad (who is likely a foreigner) is willing to accept this funny ID, why would a victim (who might also be a foreigner) twig that this person is famous? Or that the ID is fake? And wouldn't it be a terrible feeling if you knew your idea of a joke was used by a scammer to help convince someone to fall for a scam?

Let's talk 'cultural references' for a moment. How many languages are you fluent in? (Probably more than I am!) How many foreign celebrities are you familiar with? (I've probably got you beat there, but only because I'm sort of weird that way') Puns do not always translate. Lew Skannen (one of my favorite, exceedingly subtle user/baiter names here at the Eater) may mean zip, zilch, nada to someone who does not speak English as a native language. Or someone who is unfamiliar with the phrase 'loose cannon' and what it means. I admit to it being so subtle that it took me weeks before it registered, despite the fact that I am a native English speaker, familiar with the phrase, and not terribly dim. The lads often use names that are hilarious to them, but fly right over most baiter and victim heads. Your funny name may not be funny to every victim.

You might know there is no "Pigeontoe, Washington", or that there is no state of 'West Dakota' but why should someone in, say, Vietnam or Guam know that or even bother looking for that? I have little idea what a genuine foreign passport looks like. I don't even know what a U.S. Passport looks like very well, since I don't own one. I do not expect your average person to know what every passport format in the world looks like. Why should someone in the Netherlands know what an American passport looks like? And for Pete's sake, the United States can't even decide on a nationwide standard! Every state's license is different.

I'm largely speaking to my fellow Americans here, when I say that it's slightly conceited to assume that everyone, worldwide, consumes and is as steeped in your culture as you are. Yup, we sure do export our 'culture' a lot, but that doesn't mean everyone knows who Paris Hilton is. (Lucky people!) Just because someone is fabulously famous inside your borders, this does not mean they are famous everywhere. Or even that everyone in your country knows who they are. My granny hasn't a clue who most racecar drivers are, for instance. My granddad never knows actor/actress names. My parents never recognize musicians.

There's no such thing as someone universally famous. And if they are universally famous, isn't your lad going to know them? Therefore negating the reason for sending the silly ID with the silly name and the silly celebrity? Scammers have already been caught sending out pictures of Nigerian actresses and models as their own. Our lovely Nigerian members often recognize them, but most of the rest of us don't.

Pop quiz time!

Can anyone tell me who this is?

C'mon! She's famous! Wildly so! All her fellow countrypeople know who she is.

Well, see, the catch is, she's Indian. Shabana Azmi. I'm sure every country has a similar local celebrity who would prompt a 'Who?' from everyone else.

Q: So, then, Miss Answer-Person, what can I do to annoy a lad, not assist him or put potential victims in danger, and yet still have time for important things like eating chocolate and taking naps?

A: I thought you would never ask! I didn't come up with most of these, but I've stolen and compiled them from many other clever, clever members, and made use of most of them. I've never sent an ID, and yet I still have more lads than I can shake a stick at. I've kept some going for, literally, a year. Much of the same fun can be had with forms they ask you to fill out. Remember one of the cardinal rules of baiting. Don't do more work than the lads.

1. Send reply saying you have attached ID. Don't attach anything. You forgot, you�re new to attachments or it's a technical glitch, should your lad complain. I actually had a lotto scammer 'accept' an ID I 'sent' this way.

2. Scan? How do you do that? What's a scanner? I'm just a dear little old granny who has an email account so I can get pictures of the grandkids and do a few hobbies online.

3. Scanner's busted. Shame, that.

4. Sorry, did I send you a recipe scanned from the Reader's Digest by mistake? Last thing I scanned! Oh, dammit, now the scanner's busted! Every scan comes up as that recipe. Still under warranty, luckily. Replacement could take weeks to get here, though.

5. Scanner? I've never used mine. Still in the box that came with the computer. Maybe you could walk me through using it?

6. I'm sticking it in the slot on the front of the case. Why aren't you getting it?

7. Take throwaway jpg file. Change extension to .txt. Open in text editor. As the mood strikes you, remove random chunk of data at the beginning, and possibly copy and paste other random chunks of data into file to inflate the file size. Save. Change extension back to .jpg. Attach and send. The lad has to download the file but gets only an error message when he attempts to open it. For advanced fun, take some of your corrupted jpgs, inflate or deflate the size, change the extension and make them pdfs. You can then berate your lad for not having Acrobat Reader, or being too dim to download and install it. The same (less time-intensive) fun can be had by copying a dll file from your computer, changing the extension, and sending. If you don't know what dll are, though, perhaps it's safer for your computer to stick with corrupted jpgs. Or download writejunk, a lovely little program that lets you generate a useless file in whatever size you specify. It's available in two flavors, Windows and Linux and it was produced by forum member hobbes.

8. If you're feeling froggy, knock up a Photoshop where there is a tiny, tiny, tiny sliver of what might be a real ID at the top. The rest is static or completely black. Or send him the 'ZOMG! I'm having a seizure!' one I used to send. http://www.churchof.org/files/MyLicenseCrazyEyes.gif Or send him all static/black/puce/muddy colors and claim your state just started putting that new reflective coating on IDs to prevent scanning/copying/illegal duplication. Or scan your real ID, put so much glare on it that the lad will need sunglasses and can only make out that it's a bright object that's kind of vaguely ID shaped. That way, you're not even educating him as to what a real ID looks like. Oh, and you temporarily blinded him. Whoops! Remember, all you need is the appearance of cooperation, not cooperation.

9. I did send it. It bounced! (For added fun, knock up what looks to be a forwarded bounce message from their provider, naming the rejected attachment. Illegal attachment passport.jpg! Danger! Danger Will Robinson!) Your lad will be stymied, most likely. Or it was stripped. Add this <<passport.jpg>> to your message. Claim to know nothing about why attachments might get stripped.

10. Do you not know that it's illegal to send a copy of my passport to you now? Patriot Act! Are you a terrorist sympathizer or something? I thought you were a barrister! Do you not know your international law? Are you a crook or something?

11. Passport? Uh, I'm an American. Darned country's big enough to knock around in for eons without ever going anywhere foreign. They're still letting us into Canada and Mexico with just a letter and a birth certificate for a while and I just go on cruises to American holdings. Why would I need a passport? It's not like I live in Europe where there's all kinds of foreign places to visit less than a day's drive away! You want me to apply for one? I'm going to apply for one. I just have to research how to do that. And wait for yonks while they clear up the little problem of that fugitive wanted by the FBI who has the same name as me� You know, a cavity search isn't as bad as I thought it would be.

12. License? Did you miss the part of my message where I mentioned I was legally blind? I take the bus. I am elderly and the kids took the car keys away. No need to renew my license. Got a prescription card. I live in Chicago/New York/someplace with trains, ferries, and pack mules to rent. I don't even own a car.

13. It's in the safe deposit box at the bank. In the city where I used to live. Six months ago. On the other coast. Finally got them to mail it to me after much hassle and much paperwork, and then the bleeding dog ate it. I am now paying large vet bills. Hope you're happy. The dog growls every time I mention you, now.

14. Uhh, maybe I could mail it to you? What's your postal address?

15. Reverse psychology. Look, man, YOU contacted ME out of the blue with this wild tale. You said in your very first letter that you contacted me because you trust me and know about me. I don't know YOU from Adam. Was that whole business about getting my information from your secretary and knowing you could trust me a lie? Let's see YOUR ID, bub. And some personal photos, while we're at it! You want my help, you're going to have to prove it to me, pal, not the other way around.

Most lads give up asking well before you've done the lot. Pick and choose. Mix and match. Make up your own twists. Be safe. Be lazy. We not only endorse it, we encourage it.

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