Is this for real? ex-Scammer claims to have earned $75k pa

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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:35 am

It is interesting to see that there is definitely an organised approach to scamming in Nigeria. The fact that they would pull kids out of schools and offer them positions is sickening but I would certainly not put it past them.

Indeed, I have gotten the feeling on a few occasions that it might have been someone young on the other end. Being 15 myself I find it hard to think of what it would be like to be such a scumbag criminal already, when you still have your whole life ahead of you.

Very interesting article I have to say. Although his personal story may not be completely truthful and I have the feeling he may still be involved in scams, the information he gave is very interesting.

Looking forward to part 2.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Sorry for the delay folks, been a hectic morning. Part 2 is now online at http://www.scam-detectives.co.uk/blog/2010/01/26/interview-with-a-scammer-part-two/ I'll be glad never to speak to that guy again, unless you guys can think of anything else for us to discuss?

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:03 pm

Brilliant interview scamdetect

It made my stomach turn to hear what he had to say but excellent work.

I seriously doubt this guy is remotely remorseful about what he did. He quickly lapsed into victim blaming mode (they were greedy and had plenty of money) and got narky when you corrected him about his weak "got to feed the family" line. I did not know Nigerians had such a high standard of living .. what with the BMW etc etc.

It's called work scammer dude ... try it sometime. Twisted Evil

I'm depressed but not surprised about the scammers going back for another go. The person is a proven source of funds, a proven easy mark ... gullible ... so shy not target them again. Can we use this to our advantage somehow? I fell onto 419Eater sorta by accident and until now did not know about scam baiting even though I had been doing this (badly) on my own for a while.

It would be great if victims swallowed their pride a bit and contacted us when they were hit so that we might play the lads at their own game. Sigh. Wishful thinking huh?

This guy makes me feel like taking another shower ... and I have already had one this year too. Twisted Evil

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:14 pm

Welcome to Eater scamdetect.

Although the guy obviously has good knowledge of scamming, I have to say that I am very dubious about his claim to be a reformed Nigerian scammer.

A couple of things really stand out to me:

His use of the English language is perfect. For a lad, the standard that he is using is just about unheard of. I'm also suspicious when someone with such an understanding throws in a sentence such as "I think the English term is to “worm my way”. It seems forced. Not only that but there is almost no lad slang used.

The other thing is that, although the majority of the info is correct (I'd disagree with his claim about NOK being the most successful though) is that he's really given you nothing that an experienced baiter wouldn't already know about - there's nothing that you won't find on this site or learn for yourself after a couple of months baiting.

I'm also very skeptical about his claim to be working with the EFCC. Although lads do get arrested and imprisoned, I think it very unlikely that a lad living in the UK would be working for them. Not only is it highly doubtful that he would be able to give the EFCC any intelligence that they don't already have (scammers are a dime a dozen in Nigeria) but the fact that he's now in the UK would put him quite some way "out of the loop".

Try asking him about his personal relationships with the lads that he worked with. What was the relationship like between the "Catcher" and the "Barrister"? What was the relationship like with his oga? See if you can steer him more away from the technial side (which we already know about anyway) and more towards how the Nigerian scammer interacts with his peers. It may give some insight into wether or not this guy is genuine or not.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Thanks dogsbum,

It was tough interviewing that guy. I'm not a journalist by trade and I guess I don't have the emotional detachment that I'd need to be one!!

Could you great people do me a favour and give the interview a "digg" when you read it? I think it's important to get it out there to as many people as possible!

Thanks....

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Hi slightlyoutofit

Thanks for the welcome.

A couple of answers to your points, for the purposes of clarity.

1) John's English isn't as good as the interview suggests, I have had to edit for the purposes of clarity and for the reasons listed in 2)

2) John did use several slang phrases, which I have edited out for a number of reasons:

a) I didn't want to inadvertently publish offensive words or phrases (in whatever language or slang)
b) I preferred to use the word "victim" where he used "mugu" as I found it offensive for him to refer to his victims as "fools"
c) I didn't want to bog down the article with explanations of slang

3) I am also skeptical about his claims to be working with the EFCC, but he claims to be in the UK on a student exchange. Obviously I can't verify this.

I will try (if he calls again) to find out more about "inter-scammer" relationships!!

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:42 pm

See if you can get him to email you something as well.

It would be interesting to see if his IP brings up anything.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Just a quick note on IP address:

My referral stats for the blog don't show any hits from any African states at all (and the one that came from Israel came via this forum)

"John" has told me that he read part one of the interview, so if he was still in Nigeria I would have expected to see it reflected in the stats.

I suppose it doesn't rule out a proxy, but may add some credence to John's claim to be in the UK.

Any Digg Users? http://digg.com/d31GpGX

Thanks!

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:38 pm

IP addresses don't just show country of origin.

They can be Googled to see if they turn up elsewhere on the net. For example: Scam Letter repositories, forums, guestbooks, etc.

Sometimes, it's possible to get a wealth of info on a person from an IP (which is why we advocate baiting safely).

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

When I get a couple of hours to spare, I'm going to download the logs and do just that. (Google the IPs)

I had a long ethical debate with a client earlier regarding "John" and whether I should be doing more to establish if he's still "in the game" or not, and whether he's trying to pull a fast one somehow.

My take was that while he's providing information that helps to educate our readers and possibly to help them to convince a family member who has been scammed that they actually have been scammed, then whether or not he's genuine is a secondary consideration.

Having spent some more time on this site, I agree that he's not giving me more than I could find here, but he's giving my readers more than they would ever know otherwise!

As for if he's trying to pull a fast one or not, well, I won't be sending him any money, no matter what (or how far down the line) the story is!

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:49 pm

I agree with the comments Slightly made. My questions are still unanswered and he didn't tell me more then i allready know. And then this:

Quote:

I know, I know. Don’t be angry with me. I’m not proud of what I have done and I am very sorry for everyone who sent money. If I could give it back I would.

Yeah sure. And i'm the easter bunny in a sleigh pulled by squirrels.

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:48 pm

scamdetect

Well done so far, when you said

I think that any further conversations would only serve to make “John” feel better and act as some kind of counselling for him, which I have no interest in providing. I don’t want him to feel better about what he has done, or to assuage his conscience. He should feel guilt for the rest of his life.

I detected a concscience, scammers are not burdened with any feeling of remorse. To a scammer all Westerners are 'full of money' and they cannot understand the concept that they are doing anything wrong.

De-briefing John could take months, and you have the benefit of Eater expertise to assist you.

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:06 pm

Good job, scamdetect.

I have to concur with Slightlyoutofit. Neither interview told me anything that we in this forum don't already know collectively. But the interviews are educational for anybody who is not familiar with the details of these scams.

Also, I have to add my skepticism to that already expressed regarding his alleged reformation. With luck, one of us will likely be baiting him in the near future.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Thanks for your support guys, much appreciated.

I've had a comment on the interview that suggests I perhaps didn't handle the conversation well enough and may have wasted an opportunity to delve deeper into the murky world....

http://www.scam-detectives.co.uk/blog/2010/01/26/interview-with-a-scammer-part-two/

Is he/she right? Should I have handled it differently?

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:02 am

Hi ScamDetect

Tough crowd over your way.

Honestly though, there will always be people who are all big and brave keyboard heroes - chuck verbal hand grenades and feel all superior. I'm more impressed by cogent argument and action than this noise.

I thought you did well. You know there were areas where John's behaviour made your skin crawl and you drew him back to reality. John did try to pretend he was some sort of victim or that real victims deserved what happened. Seemed fair to pull that up real short. I cannot criticise anyone who works hard and gives something like this a go. It is not an easy thing to do and I have already said I would have prefaced each question with a smack to John's head just for fun.

I wonder if the critic might be a journo - not that it would change my opinion about the unhelpful comments.

I reread the article and it's true that the second contained more emotional qualifiers than the first one. It also contained much more substance than the first. Assuming that John is legitimate (and I don't think so), we need to balance the potential value of what we might learn from him against the harm he might do by gaining notoriety among his lad mates, improving his skills base, feeding an attention seeking wannabe and our legitimate desire to squash him into the dirt and pissing on the resulting stain.

You asked for help from the outset ... no easy thing and a great credit to you. A few people threw in their doubts and questions and you honoured them as best you could in a dynamic situation. Then you followed up back here to gain more insight / feedback ... That is no easy thing and a huge amount of effort on your part. I cannot fault the approach and can only congratulate you for your adult learning style.

It will take time for me to mull over what I have read in totality. John is an unrepentant rock spider who has NO intention of helping anyone other than himself. You twigged to this. Vivian has not. John did need regular slaps just like all lads do and I suspect would have dominated you (a lads normal try-on) had you not done what you did. This can be hard for people to understand if they have not been in the trenches ... they feel sorry for a lad or all carried away thinking a lad will shit gold. Naaa ... this was always a matter of extracting some info AGAINST John's counter efforts.

You see, if John was legitimate then the interview would have gone smoothly from the first one. You would have a mountain of brilliant intel to sift through and some sort of internet award to bung on a shelf. No. He came with an agenda. Worked against giving anything to you and got pissy when you tried. Now of course you could have gotten all new age and sensitive in the interview (so you avoided hurting the criminals' feelings) but then what would we have learned that we did not already know and that John felt uncomfortable about telling us??? Nothing. Worse, you risk turning this lying piece of shit into some 'poor misunderstood' African. John is a MASTER manipulator (if we believe him) - he is NOT a hero or helpful or reformed or remorseful and not interested in doing a damned thing that will make it easy for victims to protect themselves or for previous victims to recover some of their money. This came out very quickly in your second interview.

It is probably this that got under your skin and may be why you told him to fuck off so early. Not all our processing is done on a conscious level - we often just act 'because' ...on instinct.

That said ... we do need to help you be a better information gatherer by giving constructive criticism and guidance. Help develop a script perhaps ... an objective (objectives) for the next interview would be good. There might be another opportunity and John may not be done with seeing his name up there in the internet ether.

Finally, here is a difficulty with the entire process: John is our enemy. We are at war. There are casualties ... lives are lost and destroyed. Families are torn apart. People cry and die alone. John and his mates think they are fair game and deserve what happens to them ... including the lives of kids and friends and other family members totally destroyed. Anyone of us who has a beating heart will react with utter disgust when confronted by John. I said I wanted to take a shower after reading your article.

So this was ALWAYS a high risk venture in which your normal instincts would be pushed hard by our natural enemy. All in all I thought you did far better than I could ever have done and if it is any consolation, you continue to learn and will be far better should anther opportunity appear.

Real life is never about do-overs or rewinds ... it's about doing what we think is right as well as we can and learning / adapting as we go. I am most grateful for your efforts and applaud your ability not to kick this fucker into another galaxy just for laughs.

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:34 am

scamdetect wrote:

Is he/she right? Should I have handled it differently?

No. People like this vivian don't know what they are talking about. They don't know what it's like to talk to a lad. Just ignore it.

Do you think John will call again? Maybe he'll be reluctant after seeing the comments on your blog. Here's an idea which could help in controlling your emotions and get more information out of John. If he calls again, try to convince him to switch to email. Then you can take your time in formulating your questions and when he answers them you'll have time to process them in your mind. You don't have to come up with a new question when the emotions are going through your mind. And besides that, if he starts mailing you he can be traced with any luck.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Thanks folks,

If John does call, I'll suggest the switch to email so I don't get angry with him anymore, perhaps he'll prefer it!

A great article based upon the interview has been posted on Newsvine today

http://conway75.newsvine.com/_news/2010/01/28/3820991-scam-detectives-blogger-interviews-convicted-419-scammer

and we had over 1,000 visitors to the site just yesterday!!

Hopefully just a few of them have learned more than they knew about 419 and these horrible people....

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

John called back yesterday!!

I honestly didn't think he would, but he did.

The 3rd part of the interview is here - http://www.scam-detectives.co.uk/blog/2010/02/02/interview-with-a-scammer-part-three/

I didn't mention eater or baiting at all, but he brought up timewasters, so I gently explored this a little further. He told me stuff that I didn't include in the interview for obvious reasons, such as being asked for pics of himself holding signs and told he had to convert to a new religion to get the money :0)

I tried really hard to keep emotion out of it this time!! I tried to get him to agree to move to email, but he wouldn't.

Apologies have to go to anyone who posted comments btw - the original interview got slashdotted last week and we had over 30,000 visitors over a 24 hour period. This resulted in over 1,000 comments on the site. I couldn't possibly moderate them all so I took the difficult decision to delete all of the comments and leave a message answering the most vociferous critics.

Hope I did better this time....

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:29 pm

@scamdetect very good work indeed.

A few things though from the article that would concern baiters:

Interview with a scammer part three

Quote:

Scam Detective: Did you get a lot of replies like that?

John: I had a few but I learned how to tell if they were serious or not.

Scam Detective: How?

John: A serious victim would give me the information I asked for straight away so they could get the money. If they were playing a game then they would tell long stories about themselves and give lots of reasons why they could not send the money, or pretend that they had sent it like the guy I just told you about.

It may seem that baiters will have to change strategies because of this. Still, it is fortunate that now baiters know about this and adjust their strategies accordingly.

Interview with a scammer part three

Quote:

Scam Detective: You mentioned your family earlier, did they know how you were making money?

John: Yes. Lots of young people in my country play the (scam) game. Many people think that white people deserve to have their money taken because of the way they have treated Africans in the past. My family knew what I was doing, but didn’t like it very much.

There we go with that whole colonial chip on the shoulder bullshit again. Nevermind that they will scam 'fellow former slaves (African Americans)' as well. As for any other race that has money. PFF!! Rolling Eyes

All in all, a very good article I think. Again one of the most distressing things (besides the so-called 'justification' of their scams) and what not, was the strategies towards baiters. I myself am not a baiter, but I do follow up here from time to time, and at one point opened a catcher account to post scams here on the surplus as well as scamwarners. I am considering resuming that, when I get more time.

As 'John' mentioned, he and others seem to at least collaborate when it comes to determining if the replies are genuine victims, or are baiters. In this regards it really sucks that they are somewhat working together on this. Still, I think that the insight he has provided is valuable, and I will rally with the baiters on their efforts in screwing with these guys even more!

Happy hunting(baiting) all!
Happy_Slacker - lurker/spectator

P.S.

I also posted the link to the first part of the interview on scamwarners.

Mod edit: ^^^ I removed the article at ScamWarners as it does not serve in adding helpful information available for potential victims. -Ima

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:33 pm

Again, he's given you absolutely nothing that can't already be picked up on a baiting site or a victim warning site.
Please can you post some of the scammer's own words rather than your translation.

I'd like to see which dialect he uses and how he uses it.

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:43 pm

Good work ScamDetective

We all work with the tools and material at hand.

I agree with SlightOutofit - nothing 'John' says is especially insightful or new. That said, your little articles have hit a nerve and is being read by lots of people. Raising the profile of this subject is a good thing - well done, again.

I'm unsure why you chose to remove reader's comments and ask that you reconsider this decision. It's not good netiquette and counter-intuitive. Readers took trouble to post comments on your blog and as fickle as this might sound, like to see their words published and get pissed when they are 'edited'. Reader comments tend to create discussion / debate which in turn brings more readers and increases your exposure across the net. That is a very good thing.

I am saying this to help and not criticise. You have hit a nerve, increased readership and must adapt.

If there were too many posts for you to 'moderate' then I suggest you review your moderation practices to accommodate reality rather than modify reality to fit the moderation practice. I understand your desire to protect people from extreme views (if this is what your moderation does) however censorship rarely works and falls over as numbers increase. YouTube, for example, succeeds because (among other things) comments are moderated by the users themselves. Let your audience decide what offends their sensibilities and manage the issue by exception - management 101.

I too would love to get a handle on this lad's language skills and style. Do you have any actual recordings?

As for the lads picking up baiters, well, that is always a risk. It's not like any of us are going to cough up our own money to reward these todgers. Some baits do result in the lads losing big time ... not as often as we would like though. (see Nurse Nasty and the infamous SCAMMS comic double safari http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=177394&start=225&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)

Lads use the law of large numbers to their advantage. They might send 100,000 emails out for minimal cost. Their 'strike rate' might be as low as 0.1% (one tenth of one percent) but this gives them 100 cash cows from whom they steal an average of $10,000 (could be more ... might be less, we can't be sure). One million dollars buys a lot justification to clean a guilty conscience. And this is just a week (a few days?) for some gangs. Scamming is very big business.

Now we HOPE most lads are just 'lads'. Any high profit criminal activity like this eventually gets the attention of terrorists and who better to fund their bloody business than their targets?

The parallels between internet scamming and the drugs trade are obvious. ("The Wire"comes to mind.) I don't doubt lads get punished by their ogas for not filling quotas but it would be bad for business to kill off the workforce - reduces recruitment and brings you to the attention of the authorities (more bribes etc). Such things are no skin of my nose at all ... However, what I notice here (and with my own lads) is the desire to somehow justify their criminal behaviour and evoke sympathy from their marks (victims). "We are poor. You are rich. We get beaten up if we don't do well etc etc etc." It's just part of the con aimed at reducing defences and helps make them appear to be less dangerous (formidable?) than they really are.

Scammer dudes, here is a thought ... STOP PLAYING THE GAME! Get a job.

Not enough lads are killed or beaten or humiliated to act as a deterrent. Not enough by a long shot.

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:05 am

For those who feel I might be a bit rough on lads ...

Read this thread: http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=178964

A guy threw himself under a train following an 80,000 pound dating scam.

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:12 am

@ scamdetect: thanks again for doing this. It's a shame he won't continue on email. He probably knows he can be traced then and doesn't want to bother getting a proxy.

@ Happy slacker: Even if you're not a baiter you can do your share. Spread the word about scams and how they work and post on Scamwarners again. Education is our best weapon in our battle against lads.

@ dogsbum:

Quote:

Scammer dudes, here is a thought ... STOP PLAYING THE GAME! Get a job.

Lads consider scamming as a real job. And that's exactly how they call it when they have a new victim hooked. The situation in Africa is completely different then here. There is not much work and if there is for people with low education, it's a low pay job. Poor people look up to the oga's and the succesfull lads when they see them riding their big shiny cars, wearing expensive clothes, sunglasses and a Rolex watch. Of course they want a piece of the action and if they have just a bit of consiense left in them, the money will make them shut their consiense out. And of course the lies that the oga is telling them that everyone in the western world is loaded with money and it's free for the taking.
And i think you're not rough enough to the lads, you should treat your lads more like this: beating

Master Baiter Joined: 31 Oct 2009 Posts: 159

Actually even if the scammer doesn't use e-mail he can still be traced. Scam detective, can you PM me ( or post in thread, if you feel that its appropriate ) how exactly you and the lad talk ?

419Eater is my life Joined: 29 Oct 2005 Posts: 266

For want of a better word... I really "enjoyed" that.

A few things I would recommend.

Skype:
You can talk to your scammer for free.

Skype Recording: http://voipcallrecording.com/
You can record the whole interview and post it on your website

also, detachment.
When we bait as an old woman and the scammer tries to squeeze every single penny,while calling us "mummy" we could not cause any damage if we said what we felt ie "you less that a useless piece of filth and i hope you choke to death"
Its just not done!

I think it is a really good article to educate the public. Sure,people can go to a baiting or warning website and spend hours,days or even months (years) educating themselves. Most people,however, can only digest bite sized chunks...and this is perfect for that!

As a baiter, I would want to hear his voice (hence the skype recording) although your editing is necessary for print.. I would want to hear the actual words...so I could hate him a little bit more.

And lastly, I would like to ask him if he used counterfeit checks.... in general as well as in recovery scams as I think this is one of the most frequent,as well as most damaging "modalities"

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