@ll St@r - Safarix2 - VIDEO - Police Report - at end.

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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:38 pm

Well he scanned a copy of a copy of the police report...quality isn't great, but it adds to the legitimacy of the whole thing...

I can't figure out how to put this "inline" so you'll have to click - sorry Embarassed

I resized it to fit the 600 pixel max. for this site...

Now the question - go for a 3rd safari that would fail and we might lose the bait...or let A.S. say it is a forgery and watch him go insane (and then have me hire a lawyer) Twisted Evil

Mod Edit - Put picture inline for you - Rover

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:04 pm

Talked to him a couple hours today -- I had sent him an e-mail questioning why he told me cafe's closed at 9pm yet he was on them all night in benin city...

He sent 2 articles that had nothing to do with closing time...and I ended up with 2 virus warnings a couple hours later...I told him it had nothing to do with closing time -- so he sent 2 more links, one talking about nigh time browsing laws (the other link didn't work)...

He had a hissy fit over me not trusting him and such - wants to see me on cam now to prove who I am...explained I couldn't buy one till next payday in 2 weeks...I think my sons notepad has a built in camera - that I can make super dark like they do...just not enough light where I am in the house...

He for a long time, wouldn't tell me how he finally obtained his police sheet - cause at first he told me he had to go to benin city to get it personally (so I sent him 60 in the mail)...and he told me he couldn't call the police station cause there were 100 of them in benin city and he didn't know which one he was taken to...and the local police wouldn't help him at all, then they required 50% of the check to do it...then he could get it, but they couldn't give it to him personally, they had to fax it to someone...so OD provided a fax number...and Kelvin ended up scanning it... Rolling Eyes

He wasn't going to tell me until after I got on cam for him...

So I told him how clever (he didn't know that word) he was to finally get it - and he told me he went to the supervisors of the local police and they made the police get it for him...

Then we started talking about normal life things, he finally calmed down from thinking I called him a liar - he HATES that word...

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:29 pm

Ivana wrote:

he told me he went to the supervisors of the local police and they made the police get it for him...

A finely groomed lad there Very Happy

I knew he'd come come for us with the needed documents. I think you are right, we've already gotten the "clever" boi for 2 safaris, having his check rescinded seems like it would hurt him even more right now.

Congrats on the

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:15 am

could always put him on a 3rd safari when the legal mess is over...have him settle rather than wait years for a trial...

he asked me today if I were african - he thought an african would do something devious disguised as someone else ... who would do something like that??? -- lmfao

I pointed out we've spoken on YIM and the cell phone and I didn't sound like an african woman...and my english was perfect the entire time (actually it's horrible but he doesn't know that)...pretty much briefly laughed at the idea and moved on to the next subject ... that could have been an interesting twist...

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:34 am

Congrats on the badge, girlfriend! bow_down

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:36 am

This is why you are the master and I'm just a baiter Embarassed

Though I agree that having his check rescinded will hurt more than a third safari. And as you say, you could always get him to travel after the court case's settled

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:05 pm

Oh I'm definitely enjoying reading your safari too Twisted Evil

Juan's stalker Joined: 28 Aug 2008 Posts: 1423

Awesome Ivana!!! Congrats on the video, safaris, and the badge. clapping

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:16 pm

Well, he's been notified just now that we have found his story to be a lie and the signature on the check to be a match to the one he initially gave us. Can't wait to get his "calm" reply Laughing

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:21 pm

Lol he wasn't going to be online today - but I got this message anyway...

Quote:

dear you can see for your self.....i have being saying this that this ppl are fraud but you wont listern to me, can you imagine what i got from them? affter i sent them all their requirement...imagine
do they send a blank check for me to write the amount and my names in worlds? if they are to send me a check am i to be there one to enter the details on the check? cam you imagine what they are claiming? honestly i am going to kill myslef now
i DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO RIGHT NOW........THIS CHECK MEANS MY LIFE AND YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT @LLST@R ARE SAYING READ BELLOW.

from @ll St@r

Quote:

Kelvin, I am sorry but I am the bearer of bad news for you. I have gotten word from the investigator and he is pretty upset at the stunt you are trying to pull. He has stated that the investigation has concluded that you are attempting to defraud the company. He has compared the cashed check signature against the handwriting on the identification that you sent to us and has matched them to be 99.9% the same. I have to say that I am not comfortable with this Kelvin, because I had believed you were telling me the truth and now I am learning that you were attempting to frame one of our workers? Why would you do that to a honest hard working man?
Tracking agent name

I told him that the company was not a fake - work & I used them all the time with no problems...

I informed him that checks are not given blank, they are printed for him. All he has to do is present ID and sign the back of the check.
But he knew that since the investigators were 99.9% sure the check was signed by him.

I just didn't know what to think - I think I'm going to skip our planned meeting for tomorrow since I'm so upset.

The mailing address he gave me to mail a card to him (with some money) will be returned to me today since he didn't include a zip code.

I will need the zip code for the immigration lawyers too (and I need to do a little work and print out & mail the simple forms I have for him)...

But at this point I'm libel to break up with him at any moment...but I thought that 6 months ago too Twisted Evil

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:14 am

Does he sound upset to you Ivana??? Laughing

Quote:

OHH MY GOD..............WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? HOW CAN YOU CLAIM THAT I AM TRYING TO DEFRAUD YOU PPL? I SWEAR BY MY LIFE.......AND THAT OF MY ENTIRE FAMILY,
I AM NOT DEFRAUDING YOU PPL..........HOW CAN I ?
DO YOU PPL THINK I AM A FOOL? WHY WOULD I DO SUCH? I HAVE NEVER IN MY ENTIRE LIFE DEFRAUDED ANY ONE TALKLESS OF A COMPANY........ WHY WILL I DO SUCH THING? WHY WILL I GET THE COMPASATION MONEY AND STILL WANT TO CLAIM I DIN,T GET THE MONEY ? LISTERN MR MARK I KNOW YOU PPL ARE TREATING ME THIS WAY BECAUSE I AM NOT IN THE STATES
I AM SURE THIS IS A DELIBRATE ATEMPT FOR YOU PPL NOT TO PAY ME THE SO CALLED COMPESATION.........RIGHT? BUT I SWEAR TO YOU THIS IS NOT THE LAST YOU PPL WILL HERE FROM ME........I AM GOING TO CALL MY SENDER NOW AND HAVE THEM SUE YOUR COMPANY,,,,,,,,,,,OH MY GOD THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR ME TO BEAR,
YOU ALL WILL DIE IN HELL........I YOUR FULL GENARATIONS WILL NEVER KNOW PEACE IN LIFE,

COME TO THINK ABOUT IT.................ALL THE SO CALLED HOTELS YOU CLAIMED TO HAVE BEEN ARANGING FOR ME TO STAY AT BENIN CITY ,,,ALL FAILED,
ALSO..YOU CLAIM THAT I SHOULD GO TO A STAURE AND THAT IT WAS BLACK...YET I FOUND OUT IT WAS WHITE....
STILL...YOU MADE ME LOSE MY HOURNEST JOB AT THE CAR WARSH..IF I WAS A FRAUD WOULD I GO TO WORK AT A CAR WARSH? I SENT YOU A VIDEO OF MY SELF, I SENT MY HANDWRITEN LETTER TO YOU, I SENT MY POLICE REPORT SHOWING MY AREST,
AND YET YOU CLAIM I AM TRYING TO DEFRAUD YOU PPL? NOW YOU ARE CLAIMING THAT MY WRITEN IS 99,9% AGAINST YOUR SO CALLED CHECK? WHO WRITES THE CHECK IS IT ME OR YOU PPL ISSUEING THE CHECK? YOU SEE YOU PPL ARE THEIFS I KNEW IT ALL ALONG THAT IT WOULD COME TO THIS...THAT WAS WHY YOU CHOOSE BENIN CITY,
god will purnish you all i swear to you ,
all your kids will naver grow old ,
they will be cut short in life, you ppl are wicked,
you ppl are fraud ,,,theifs
YOUR WIIL ALL DIE ONE AFFTER THE OTHER IF YOU DONT PAY ME MY DUE MONEY

Whoops, almost missed he sent a 2nd email

Quote:

you are statring a war you cant fight...............i swear even if it means the last drop of blood of my life,,,,,,,,,,,you and your so called investagation team will pay for it, i swear to you
plus your entire family .........recall i have your fax number? i wil;l trace and mak sure i get you ppl theifs........you want to play tricks on me for a company you are a mare worker... and you and mr eze you won let me have his phone number and address you make me go to benin city to suffer while you were playing tricks on me,
you will regret your actions i sweear to you?
do you know what is wictch craft? i guess you know better?

Wow, this lad is now my favorite lad, even more than the putz strung along for over a year Very Happy

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:52 am

Very nice work, OD & I. To bad the lad can't take a joke. Laughing

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:25 am

This is such good work Smile

It warms my heart SO MUCH to see the lad go through such hell Twisted Evil

And all those siggy lines, you're spoilt for choice there!

luv ya work!

Chrysis

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:37 am

Wow, I can't believe I didn't notice this thread until now. Shocked

Damn fine work. Two safaris, a video, and an actual arrest complete with report... AND he's still on the hook. I take my hat off to you, Ivana.

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:18 pm

Yeah he's still on the hook -- this was my very first bait too Cool

I think I can claim one of the hour glasses, it's been 14 - 15 months I've had him...

He's still never asked me for over $150 - and is quite willing to settle for $50...

We had a spat over the $60 I sent him in the card, I asked when he got it that he WU me back the money since I borrowed it so he could travel and he no longer needs it for that ... he told me NO, that he had people he needed to pay back...and said he'd give me the 1,000 for the laptop to pay off work & the 60 back when he got the check...I'm wasn't too happy about that but agreed to it...

We talked about suing early on, but he didn't want to wait that amount of time to get paid & so I let it drop...now he's talking about suing again (and giving OD the great voodoo curses again)...

I've got a lawyer set up (me) for the immigration paperwork -- and was considering using the same company for the legal suit but I'm not too sure if that will look right...

So I'm kinda looking for a lawyer to help with his legal action against the shipping company...please PM if you're interested Very Happy

I'm more than happy to help work on a heading template & forms, I need someone with the energy to print out the forms & postal mail them to him from a different location & receive the letters back (I'm using Shebop's PO box)... to mail the forms will be about $2.00 each time and I am willing to pay that...OD has a lawyer to play at the shipping company...

For the newcomers, this will be the first time I spend any money on him (mailing the forms) but I don't mind since he's spent so much of his own money up to this point and he'll need to spend the same amount to mail the forms back & then more to have them notarized...once he gets used to filling out basic forms & having them notarized I'll e-mail the larger forms he needs to fill out & have notarized & mail back...

I love the idea of having him fill out forms for 2 sets of lawyers Very Happy

still with the hope of immigration to the US and a nice big check (which will be larger since we have to sue)...

Thanks for all the encouragement !!!

Thank you OD for making this all possible !!! Smile

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:58 pm

WOW, My guy just asked me for $1800. I wish I was as talented as Ivana. This 'Grasshopper' needs to learn SO much. Embarassed

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:17 pm

One might, as sender, get the full compensation from the admirable shipping company and even a date with the CEO, who is SO HOT?

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:22 pm

Oh I'm sure you can talk him down from 1800 ... I bet if you could only come up with 1000 he'd be ok with that Wink

Yeah that's what keeps me amazed about this one, he's been chasing 50 for over a year, before the laptop/insurance came up...and he's still chasing after the 60 I just sent...

I wrote him and let him know I got the envelope back, it had been torn open and the money & crystal were gone - but it came back as undeliverable since there was no zip code...

I needed the zip code so I could call the lawyers and give it to them, they must have been trying to reach him without success for the same reason...

I pointed out I tried to get him to get a lawyer after the 1st trip to Benin City, but he wanted to handle it his way ... now I'm sure, IF he's telling the truth, that we need to get a lawyer...

I will have an emergency come up this afternoon so I can't chat with him - I want this all to stew in his mind for a day or two...

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:59 pm

And ONCE AGAIN Ivana is right!!! Of course, when he balks at getting the Anti terroist forms done I can bring him down significantly.

You KNOW I'm gonna introduce this the MOMENT I sober up Embarassed

Chrysis

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:39 pm

lol devil woman -- I established early on that the shipping company wouldn't talk to me at all since it was no longer my package - I shipped it and it was now the possession of the receiver... that way the lad couldn't tell me to handle it...

but since we're going to get a lawyer involved - I might start to like the shipping companies lawyer Wink

or my lawyer - just gush about how smart they are...things to make him jealous or worried Wink

but if I get the chance, I intend to finish this bait by falling in love with lou who is someone I talk about all the time that Kelvin finds non-threatening...

Again, I'm looking for a lawyer to represent Kelvin against the shipping company ... needs to be someone who can send & receive mail (and who is not using shebops PO box - I'll be using that for immigration)...

I have him fairly convinced that all business done in the US is either in writing or in e-mail so copies can be kept...phone's anyone can say anything and not be right and there would be no record to prove what someone said...

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:54 pm

Oh this is driving him crazy !!! He is hurt, confused, and pissed off Very Happy

I sent him this today --

Quote:

Sigh

Yesterday when I checked the mail the envelope had been returned to me, the money and the crystal were missing - the envelope had been torn open. It said it was undeliverable since there was no zip code on it.

I'm sure the lawyers have been trying to reach you too - I need the zip code so I can call them & give them the info so they can write you.

I have no clue what to think about the insurance check. I trust you, but it's hard for me to believe that they found the signatures to be the same. I think if you are real, it is time to get a lawyer and sue them. I suggested that after the first time you went to Benin City, but you wanted to do it your way...I think it's time to get a lawyer...

I'll talk to you in a few hours

Ivana

to which he responded - I added spacing to make it more readable

Quote:

now you are sounding as if you dont trust me........................right?

okat let me put it this way....maybe you will understand better
when it all began,,,,,,i was told to send them

1) a photo of me with my senders name boldly writen on a paper which i did and sent to them,

2)also they asked for my drivers license ,,,but you know i dont have that,,,so they asked for my work id card..which i sent(bear in mind that my work id contains my signatures whic is simply K.E)

3) I SENT also my international document from imigrations office it bears the same ID CARD SIGNATURES TOO,

then .. when mr EZE LIED THAT HE HAD GIVEN ME THE CHECK I NEW IT WAS ALL FRAUD, BE COS THIS IS THE SAME MR EZE WHOM ....THEY refuse to give me his contact details including phone numbers.....

1

2......i was promised acomodations ....at THE MERIDAIAN HOTEL....I got there there was noting like that , no resevations for me in the hotel there,

3....latter i was ask to go to HOTEL RANDOKENH TTHE NEXT DAY THAT THEY HAD A RESEVATION FOR ME THERE.....AND THAT I SHOULD NOT DRINK OR EAT COS THEY WONT PAY FOR IT,,, I BELIVED THEM AND WENT THETRE EVEN WITH SOME CODE NUMBERS WHICH THEY GAVE ME AS COMFERMATION CODES.....AN D THERE WAS NO resevations for me there too, THIS WAS A DIFRENT DAY NOT THE SAME DAY I WAS ASKED TO GO TO THE MERIDAIN,,,,

IF YOU were the one IVANA WHAT WOULD YOU BE THINKING AT THIS TIME? WHEN all the hotel they claim to have booked for you, and you got there there was no reservation for you?

ALSO CONSIDER THIS TOO.....IF YOU HAVE TO TRAVEL OUT OF TN,,,,TO ANOTHER STATE WHERE YOU DONT KNOW B4.....AND YOU WERE NOT GIVEN ANY PHONE NUMBER TO CALL ANYONE OR ADDRESS TO MEET SOME ONE ....YOU WERE ONLY ASKED TO email them once you get to the airport will you make that journey?

again and latter at about 12mid night you are asked to got to the airport that the person whom is to hand you the check is on his way to the airport,,,that when you get there you should go to customs area holding the big bold paper with your senders name on it that they will locate you with that... will you go there?

why dont they let you at least have the person numbers so you can call and know hwere to locate him....but in my case even when they new i was in benin city they still refuse to give me his numebers,,,,,even when i have to send mine for them to call me and locate me they dint call nor try reaching me in anyway....what would you be thinking,?

okay....i was to get the check on the 10th later to 11th.....and was asked to go to a major road to stand with same postal,,,,,,that the same person will locate me and that i should stand in front of a BLACK STATURE......BUT WHEN I GOT THERE IT WAS WHITE.

i waited and dint see him...........i was broke and could not take the pics i was asked to take if MR EZE DID NOT SHOW UP.......... again how did they know he was not going to show up? b4 asking me to take a pics of myself in front of the stature if the MR EZE DINT SHOW UP,,,,,hhmm

latterthat sme night they claim to have contacted mrEZE,,,and he siad he has given me the chek,,,,can you imagine that.....?

i want you to think real deep....the next day was 12th that was the day i got arested for wondering aimlessly.........with no money on me ,if i had got the check ,what will i still be doing at benin city on the 12th>?night b4 i was arested...

think
when the investigation was going on MR MARK METIONED TO ME THAT i was not the only person acusing MR EZE, FOR STEALING MY CHECK...that they have got reports about him doing so b4....can you imagine..? okay

if i have signed the check....i would have at leaset have my fingerprints on it? why dint they ask for that? also why will i be waisting my time chasing something i know i have collected ?

also when i was asked to send in my hand writen letter if i was the one that have writen on that check.....dont you think i would have changed my hand writen and send to them a diffrent one? look i am no fool
this is the had work of MR MARK AND MR EZE ,,,,,

ITS A WAY THEY ARE TRYING TO FOOL ME SO I CANT GET THE MONEY,,,,BUT ITS A PITY YOU DONT BELIVE ME....i am just alone on this,,,,,i dont know what to say anymore .....BUT GOD KNOWS I NAVE GOT ANY CHECK OR MONEY FROM ANYONE....lets sue them
kelvin

to which I responded

Quote:

ohhhh you've had such a terrible time Kelvin Sad

I told you lets get a lawyer in my last mail to you - that shows I believed you.
I did tell you to get a lawyer before you went to Benin City the second time but that may work to your advantage.

The one reason I believe you are telling the truth was you got arrested when you should have had the money. I believe with the money you would have gotten a nice place to stay to rest and eat and told me about that.

I doubt Mr. Mark was in on it - I think Mr Eze fooled everyone.

All I can figure is he took your signature from one of your documents and traced over it to sign it & forged your work ID. Didn't you say that every company had a work ID, so maybe he made one with your name and his picture. I hear that can be done. Then cashed the signed check with the ID.

They did say that Mr Eze was under suspicion with other cases, I wonder if he did it like that too to them.

*** You forgot to address the fact that I don't have a zip code for you to give the immigration lawyers...they can't get any papers to you without one. This is important***

I will be busy the next couple of days - work wants me to process this document for (a company name)...a different company than I usually work for...and it will take me a couple days to do. I am going to try to see if I can turn it in on Monday, I think right now they want it Friday.
If I can get them to agree to Monday then I can call around to find a lawyer more this week.

I will have to find an international lawyer who works on a sliding scale - if you win the case they add up the amount of the insurance check (6,000) and then give punitive damages (a fee that is charged to punish the company so they won't do it again) and that would probably be equal to the 6,000 check. So at least 12,000. It might be more since you were left on the streets for a couple days and went to jail due to them.

The lawyer would take 33.34% ... so say the judgment is 12,000 that would mean you would pay the lawyer 4,000 and you would get 8,000. If you don't win the case, you owe the lawyer nothing.

So I'll have to call around to find a lawyer who works internationally and believes there is enough evidence to make a case. Since @ll st@r is saying your signature matched 99.9% that might be a little hard to find. But they can bring in their own experts and deny that claim with a little evidence.

The lack of hotel reservations may be an oversight on @ll st@r's part, but we can prove that you didn't get accommodations which any reasonable person would have taken, even if you planned to defraud them. That can be proved by contacting the hotels and confirming there wasn't reservations made on your behalf.

A lot of times the company (@ll st@r) will settle the case rather than go to court since they don't want bad publicity and frequently if the case goes to court, the jury will award more money for damages than what is standard to settle the case. But the lawyer can explain all that to you. It just depends on how sure all star is that they can prove fraud. We can take them all the way to court if necessary.

If it went to court, rather than settle our of court, you would need to be here to testify, but we're working on getting you here anyway so that shouldn't be a problem.

You didn't say if you could contact me tomorrow - I will look for you around 11am my time - 5pm your time...

Ivana

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:27 pm

oh this just came in and I thought it was so cute I just had to share

He really has a complex about the honesty of other nigerians (although he is the one honest one out there) and how other countries treat nigerians (cause they're a 3rd world country and can't retaliate)

To Mark - the tracking agent

Quote:

GOD WILL PURNISH YOU WITH ALL THOSE ALIGATIONS YOU ARE LAYING ON ME........
YOU WILL NEVER KNOW HAPPINESS IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE..........I SWEAR BY MY LATE PARENTS GRAVE,,,,,,I KNOW NOTHING AND I HAVE NEVER IN MY LIFE SEEN MR EZE OR RECIVED CHECK FROM HIM.............IF I AM LYING THEM LET ALL THE ABUSE AND COURES WHICH I LAY ON YOU AND YOPUR COMPANY FALL BACK ON ME AND MY ENTIRE FAMILY,
BUT IF THIS IS AWAY THAT YOU PPL HAVE PLANED IT SO THAT YOU WONT PAY ME MY MONEY ....BECOS I AM A NIGERIA AND VERY FAR AWAY FROM YOU PPL...YOU THINK I CANT DO A THING...LET ME TELL YOU I WILL CONTINUE TO LAY COURSES ON YOU EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE, AND EVERY MINS...PLUS MORE
THEIFS

Think laying those courses on him every min. might get a bit tiring and stressful??? lmfao

to which mark responded

Quote:

Kelvin, why the hell would I plan this? What would I have to gain from anything? I am a lowly tracking agent. You are making it sound like I am behind some evil plot to cheat you out of something. As far as I can tell from the investigation results you are the one who has been lying and that is what I am going on. Not to mention this gibberish drivel you continue to write to me suggests more and more a cheating man found guilty only to try and hide the truth. You can tell me the truth Kelvin, I would not think any less of you. But I did want to let you know that you are wrong, I do know happiness as I just bought a 50" LCD Samsung television, so I think you need to adjust your forecast a bit.

Mark - Tracking Agent

Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:38 am

^^^

Quote:

I do know happiness as I just bought a 50" LCD Samsung television,

Could that be with 'his' money? how sweet!

Master Baiter Joined: 24 Mar 2009 Posts: 128

You know, that "police report" really looks suspect, seems that it should say Nigerian Police and not to mention that it has no location/street/phone/email info on it?? Does that seem strange to you?? Then he invokes the name of God to "purnish" everyone else, and even yet unborn children.... however (the thing he conveniently forgets) had he not been involved in trying to scam in the first place he would not have gone on the safari, nor would he have spent his own funds on it!!!

Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:34 pm

I thought using the term "the nigeria police" was odd too until I looked up their police dept. and they used it that way with that symbol...

I suspect that every police station uses the same printed form as they are a 3rd world country and making a set for each police station would cost more money & be a hassle to distribute...

I think a lot of scammers use "God" a lot - to gain your trust - I love it when baiters get offended when they use "god bless you" and things, since they belong to some other strange religion to confuse them...

And a lot of them really attend church on sundays - they don't see what they're doing as "against the rules" ... the don't like it when you say you don't attend church...

They also don't like it if you get drunk, smoke weed (ganja), smoke cigarettes, are tattooed - those are all signs of prostitution over there - so I try to make it as normal and wholesome as apple pie over here...

This one in particular has told me "it's not against the law to ask your girlfriend for help" and "a lot of my friends have american girls who send them money"...he neglects to mention they're all running about 10 girls each they're begging money from...and all the reasons they're begging are lies...

they justify what they're doing that way...

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