Ethics

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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:51 pm

@modernPrimitive: YOU go do it on your own. Then tell us about it.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:52 pm

modernPrimitive wrote:

Look, maybe it's a bit idealistic, and I doubt that the odd story would get the point across, but if you really bombard their psyches with "success stories" you might just cause some changes in their way of thinking.

The word "idealistic" doesn't really cover your suggestions.

Here are a few words that do:

Unrealistic. Untenable. Absurd. Idiotic. Time-wasting. Worthless. Useless.

Take the word "idealistic" out of that sentence, and pop in any one of the above, and you might have something approaching reality.

Editing to add: Actually, no. You wouldn't. Lad reforming doesn't work. We've told you that...and yet you persist in your naive, absurd belief that we can fix them through kindness. How old are you? You come across as a horrifically uninformed high school student who just finished taking an eleventh-grade Philosophy course, and now think you have all the answers that we grownups are too stupid to know.

Your arrogance is staggering. Please go away now.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

@modernprimitive: I appreciate that you're trying to process this all for yourself so you can consider your part in all of it. You're being met with frustration from members because they have already processed this and shared their standpoint with you.

I do think you're overthinking it. We don't have to understand the root cause behind all of it because as you said, there is likely more than one factor to look at. If a criminal intended to intrude into my home and I had the means to take away his weapon or distract him from that, I wouldn't stop to think about the root causes for his criminality.

As for motives, I already said, we're all individuals. You'll not be able to successfully lump us together under one answer.

Look at baiting this way:

Remove the anonymity of the internet/emails. A criminal is trying to steal money from an elderly woman and I witness it. I present myself as a much more appealing target, understanding that he is a criminal and trying to steal from me. He is distracted from the little old lady and follows me. I walk away, yet dangling my money to entice him. His goal the entire time is theft. If in the course of trying to steal from me he agrees to any conditions such as travel/tattooing/silly pictures than he is responsible for being willing to go to such lengths to commit a crime. The suffering I will have inflicted is that he will be fruitless in his attempts to steal my money.
This is scambaiting only we do it over the internet.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:57 pm

Quote:

It's like an episode of House - fighting the symptoms but not the cause

Stop it. Now I know you're kidding.

The number of unspeakably gross scams is unending - the Noma charity scam to steal money from a charity set up to tend African children badly disfugured by disease - the dying baby scam using a picture of a dead baby that had died four years previously - the burns victims of a petrol leak in Nigeria. Last week I had the Deaf Lottery, quite apart from the ones who abuse the phone service used by deaf people.

If your approach is to mail them asking them to repent - you are free to do that. I wish you luck. Meanwhile I aim to send some on holiday to Cotonou - no expenses paid. I must do some calls. Very Happy

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:58 pm

Okay, maybe I was a bit off in my OP. I've clearly insulted people.

I also realize that I'm wasting some valuable time here so it might be best to drop the ethical issue and create a new thread along the lines of "reform strategies". Would that be of greater value or do you all believe it to be a lost cause?

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:59 pm

Let it go folks. You can't win an argument with an ignorant man.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:59 pm

OP wrote:

I do live in Africa

Can some mod verify this before locking the thread? Just out of idle curiosity, it really doesn't change anything.

I was thinking about a long well-reasoned response but then changed my mind and decided to say this instead: Ethics schmethics. Rather than trolling us, give your approach a try and post the results. I can guarantee that you'll never reach any agreement with any of the folks here unless you can prove you are right, because we have years of experience and tens of thousands of baits proving you wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:01 pm

modernPrimitive wrote:

Okay, maybe I was a bit off in my OP. I've clearly insulted people.

I also realize that I'm wasting some valuable time here so it might be best to drop the ethical issue and create a new thread along the lines of "reform strategies". Would that be of greater value or do you all believe it to be a lost cause?

It's a lost cause. We have no need for it and no interest. Leave us alone please, and go do your own research and your own processing and your own hand-wringing. We're done with that, and we've moved on to actually doing something of value that has an impact.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:03 pm

Late to the party, sorry. I brought some more popcorn for the spectators.

Why do I bait?
To de educate scammers?
To waste scammers time?
For trophies?
As a creative outlet?
Nah, that's just a bonus.

I bait because I really enjoy messing with peoples heads.

Moral compass, pfft. Moral is a ever changing concept that's hard to define. Yeah, those are nicer words for saying that mines broken/lost/what have you. And Nietsche was a quack.

So what I wanted this post to tell you is that yes, some people have questional motives for scambaiting but it all comes down to one thing: Humanity. People are assholes. Maybe not all the time but everybody's an ass some of the time. That may be a bleak, cynical outlook on life on my behalf but it works for me and is reinforced almost every day. You can try to be a naive do gooder all your life but you can't get away from being human. There are no saints.

So yeah, I'm a sadistic bastard and I enjoy it. Not all the time but some of the time. Because I'm human.

Interestingly enough I was a real naive do gooder myself up until about two years ago when I stopped smoking pot.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:06 pm

Krona wrote:

Can some mod verify this before locking the thread? Just out of idle curiosity, it really doesn't change anything.

Technically Africa ....

See my earlier post (bottom of last page)

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:20 pm

@modernprimitive

I do understand where you are going with the psychological aspect of things. "Give them hope that they can crawl out of the ghettos of their country and be successful" etc etc.
But honestly, every country has a ton of success stories in regards to this stuff, in addition to every country's populace having the ability to google it. (Minus N. Korea of course)

I truly believe that it is the responsibility of the individual who hails from those horrible circumstances to educate their fellow countrymen on the existence of hope. Not baiters.

I truly do applaud your humanitarian outlooks on this topic, many people from my country share the same convictions and have invaded the continent of Africa by the thousands over the past 4 decades. We call them the Peace Corps, habitat for humanity, missionaries etc.

The modalities you (roughly) presented are interesting to ponder, but they are destined to fail because they lack the one fundamental thing that scammers are searching for. Easy money.
It's the difference between a bait that lasts a couple days, to the bait that lasts several months. If the scammer doesn't see potential MONETARY profit from it, he simply drops you.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:30 pm

blah wrote:

@modernprimitive

I do understand where you are going with the psychological aspect of things. "Give them hope that they can crawl out of the ghettos of their country and be successful" etc etc.
But honestly, every country has a ton of success stories in regards to this stuff, in addition to every country's populace having the ability to google it. (Minus N. Korea of course)

I truly believe that it is the responsibility of the individual who hails from those horrible circumstances to educate their fellow countrymen on the existence of hope. Not baiters.

I truly do applaud your humanitarian outlooks on this topic, many people from my country share the same convictions and have invaded the continent of Africa by the thousands over the past 4 decades. We call them the Peace Corps, habitat for humanity, missionaries etc.

The modalities you (roughly) presented are interesting to ponder, but they are destined to fail because they lack the one fundamental thing that scammers are searching for. Easy money.
It's the difference between a bait that lasts a couple days, to the bait that lasts several months. If the scammer doesn't see potential MONETARY profit from it, he simply drops you.

Well thanks for a positive response.
I'm not saying one shouldn't give the runaround and keep a lad on a string for as long as possible. My argument is that one should maintain a compassionate outlook throughout one's endevours. I'm not proposing that one try and reform someone after a few days - I agree that's naive, I think one can be devious in one's tactics (and even cause temporary suffering) as long as COMPASSION underlies one's motives at all times.

The problem with the Peace Corps and all those humanitarian organizations is that they create a dependency rather than actually empowering African's to do something for themselves - they're perpetuating the "victim" attitude.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:31 pm

Right...the OP is from SA. That's where my Alex Mandl4 scammer was from. This was the scammer who did everything he could to lure a lonely, romance-starved, hard-of-hearing older woman to Africa with a gymbag full of her life savings, so he could snatch her and take her out into the bush, steal her bag-o'-cash, and probably leave her either beaten/raped or dead.

The fact that I managed to get him to spend his own money in plane tickets, bus fares, car rentals, and hotel costs, and kept him away from his other victims for almost a week, fills me with such joy.

The hilarious hairbrush antics were just a bonus. Laughing

Seriously, this thread is out of control.

IBTL

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:34 pm

modernPrimitive wrote:

Well thanks for a positive response.
I'm not saying one shouldn't give the runaround and keep a lad on a string for as long as possible. My argument is that one should maintain a compassionate and humanitarian outlook throughout one's endevours. I'm not proposing that one try and reform someone after a few days - I agree that's naive, I think one can be devious in one's tactics (and even cause temporary suffering) as long as COMPASSION underlies one's motives at all times.

We don't have time to play these silly games. Lads are like cockroaches - step on one, several more crawl out from the baseboards. We don't have "weeks" to spend grooming lads for reform...especially since we have already proven that the chances of reforming a lad is practically nil.

These are evil people. A few weeks of COMPASSION will not change their nature.

Anyone who is willing to do the things that they are willing to do is a lost cause. Accept that, and move on.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:40 pm

@ NN - I think this thread needs euthenasia!

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:44 pm

Quote:

October 31, 2006 Calif. Man Killed in Brazil in Ripoff

By KIM CURTIS and STAN LEHMAN
ASSOCIATED PRESS

SAN BRUNO, Calif. (AP) - The lonely, divorced carpenter thought he was going to Brazil to make wedding plans.
Instead, he was drugged and held captive for six days at his fiancee's home while she and another man emptied his bank accounts, according to Brazilian authorities. Then they drove the 56-year-old victim to a vacant lot, where they strangled him with copper wire, doused his body with fuel, and set it on fire, investigators say.

Authorities found Raymond Merrill's charred body in April.
Now, the woman he believed was his betrothed is under arrest, along with a man suspected of helping to kill him.
"He would talk to me about ideal relationships and pure love," said Merrill's best friend, Bill Rauch. "With age doesn't necessarily come wisdom. He was used to doing things his way and, in the end, it did him in."

For months, his family knew nothing of his horrifying end. It was only after a bungled robbery in Brazil that investigators even learned of Merrill's fate.

Merrill met Regina Filomena Rachid last year through an online dating service. At the time, he was lonely and depressed, having been dumped by a Las Vegas woman for whom he had bought expensive gifts, according to Merrill's best friend.

Merrill and Rachid exchanged dozens of calls, e-mails and photographs, often enlisting Rachid's 18-year-old daughter as a translator. Rachid was 41, from an upper-middle-class family that was in the real estate business.

"I thought, `This is going a little fast,' but I didn't want to sound critical," said Merrill's sister, Marcia Sanchez Loebick.
The warning signs were obvious to Merrill's friend of nearly 30 years. Merrill gave Rachid $10,000 to start a skin care clinic and bought her a $20,000 sport utility vehicle. She complained it wasn't a fancier, more expensive model, Rauch said.

"This from a man who was tightfisted," Rauch said. "Ray and I would go out and I'd have to buy all the beers. All of a sudden, he's lavishing all these gifts and money on a relationship he's not even close to consummating.

"I said, `Ray, these are so many red flags. I can't believe you're pursuing this,'" Rauch said. "He would just slough it off. He'd say, `She's just a passionate and emotional Latina.' What do you say to a guy like that?"

Merrill visited Rachid twice in Sao Jose dos Campos, an industrial city about 60 miles from Sao Paulo. Both times he stayed a week longer than planned. Both times he notified Rauch, who then drove to Merrill's home in San Bruno to water the plants and collect the mail. On the third trip, Merrill again overstayed his return, but this time he didn't call Rauch to let him know.

Loebick, who lives in Cleveland, said she sent her brother repeated e-mails warning him that their 86-year-old father was dying, but got no response. She and Rauch's best friend called police in California to report him missing.

What happened to Merrill was more awful than either could have imagined.

Sometime after he arrived on March 21, Rachid and her real boyfriend, Nelson Siqueira Neves, drugged Merrill, kept him in a room in Rachid's house, and drained his bank accounts, stealing about $200,000 in all, according to Merrill's sister and Brazilian authorities.

Then, on April 1 - the day he was scheduled to return to California - they hired Evandro Celso Augusto Ribeiro for $5,600 to help kill him and set fire to the corpse, according to investigators. Authorities found the scorched remains but could not identify the victim, and buried the body in a pauper's grave.

But then Rachid - to raise money to pay off the hit man - took part in the holdup of a black-market money changer, and accidentally left her purse behind, investigators say.

The money changer went to police and turned over the purse, which contained Merrill's credit card. Hours later, Rachid showed up at the same police station to report her purse stolen. Police arrested her on the spot. The alleged hit man soon told authorities what happened to Merrill, investigators said.

Rachid and Ribeiro are in custody, charged with armed robbery followed by death.

Rachid's boyfriend was questioned by police in early October but was released under a Brazilian law that says no one can be arrested in the days immediately before and after an election, investigators said. Now he cannot be found.

"I feel a really terrible sense of loss," said Merrill's best friend. "You expect to lose your parents. But you don't expect one of your best friends to die."

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:47 pm

Quote:

A final-year student of the Department of Survey and Geo-Informatics Engineering, University of Lagos, Mr. Lawal Adekunle Nurudeen, has been sentenced to 19 years imprisonment for obtaining $27,900.91 from an Australian woman, Pee Loo Rosalind Summer.

The convict was arraigned before Justice M.O. Obadina of the Ikeja High Court on a 19-count charge bordering on obtaining money by false pretence and forgery. He was found guilty on all the counts and consequently sentenced to 12 months imprisonment on each count.

The convict was also ordered to pay the sums of $5,900, N526, 117.15 and any interest standing to his credit in his savings account with Sterling Bank Plc, Ikorodu Branch, to the victim.

In addition, the convict is to pay $250 monthly to the victim until the total sum fraudulently obtained by him is liquidated. His two plots of land situated at Mowo Kekere, Ikorodu, bought from the proceeds of the crime, are to be sold and the money realised remitted to the victim. The Honda prelude car recovered by the EFCC from the convict is also to be sold and its proceeds remitted to the victim.

Some time in 2007, the convict, who was an undergraduate of Unilag, met the victim on the internet and introduced himself as Engineer Benson Lawson, a Briton working with a multi-national company in Nigeria. Along the line, the victim, a 56- year old woman from Australia, told the convict that she wanted a husband and all the men she had met always disappointed her. The convict, who is married with three children instantly applied and told the victim that she had met her Mr. Right.

To convince his prey, he told the woman that he was a 57-year old widower and that a few years back, his wife and their only child died in a ghastly motor accident in Lagos. He sent the picture of a white man to the victim to foreclose any suspicions. The victim accepted his proposal and that gave room for the next stage of the heist.

A few weeks later, he called the woman to introduce himself as Dr. Saheed Bakare and informed her that her 'fiancé,' Benson Lawson, had an accident and needed money for his treatment. The love-struck woman sent some money. Two weeks after, the convict called the victim and thanked her profusely for her kindness. He now told her that he would like to visit her in Australia so that they could consummate their relationship. He demanded for money for air ticket, police and customs clearances, etc.

At the end of the day he duped the woman to the tune of $47,000 before his arrest and arraignment by the EFCC.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Lotta, I'll help.

Posted at ScamWarners: LINK

Quote:

I just returned from Johannesburg where I was to assist
one of those REFUGEES from ZIMBABWE and I was neer
death. I spent up to day allmost $10,000 up to today
on this guy and when I came to Johannesburg and they
arranged place for me to stay, only about 2 hours
after I arrived 3 guys entered my room where I was put
to stay with guns they tight me up ,tape my mouth to
prevent from nois and told me they will kidnapp me and
I have to cooperate with them or be KILLED. They ask me
to give them all my money I have and the FIGHT just begin.
I am 62 years old and they were 3 of them, but I told
myself if I have to go with them and be killed anyway, I righter
dye here and start fight back. I want to buy some time,
maybe someboby will hear me? I did it for about 10 minutes
and than being without OXYGEN, taped ny mouth and nose,
suddenly I lost consience and next thing I wake up to
everybody surprise and POLICE next to me, telling me
I BEAT ALL THE ADDS MAKING MIRACLES BEING ALLIVE
telling me they left me thinking I AM DEAD,NOT BREATHING
so they took my wallet with $1750 and bunch of CREDIT
CARDS and surprisingly left my Passport that I found under the
bed and $ 2000 in TRAVELERS CHECKS in envelope untouched,
probably not checking CONTEND OF ENVELOPE. GOD was
my SAVOR! I made MIRACLE. Police took me to American
Embassy next day and following day Embassy order POLICE to
release me to go home. I consider myself extremly lucky
and I can say I am born SECOND TIME. Thank GOD.
I made history and survive the TERROR that 80% peaple
would not be surviving. Those things happening only
in the MOVIES .

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:51 pm

From asiaone.com

Quote:

Virtual 'love' cost her $12,000

She had gone on the Web to search for a life partner but his web of lies left her nearly $12,000 poorer.
Last Friday night, the 37-year-old accounts executive, who declined to be named, made a police report after she was cheated by a man she 'met' on international dating website match.com

The divorcee with three children told The Sunday Times yesterday she had put up her profile on match.com after hearing success stories from friends and colleagues.

She, too, thought she had found love when two months ago, the man, who went by the username tony7407 and who claimed to be Taiwanese, sent her an e-mail message.

They chatted online daily, occasionally calling each other over the phone too.

The man, claiming to be working in an investment company in Hong Kong, was 'caring and knowledgeable'.

'He said we had a future together and I believed him. He even said he was going to visit me in Singapore within the next two weeks,' she said.

Just as she began to let her guard down, he told her he had lost heavily in the recent stock market crash.

Now eager to help him, she invested $5,500 through a 'VIP account' of his client. He promised her it would 'definitely make money'.

Last Monday, he told her the stock market had rebounded, she had made a huge profit, and that his company would reinvest the profits.

Twenty-four hours later, more good news came: She had made a million dollars.

But to get her money, she had to remit $10,000 in administrative fees. Smooth as ever, when she said she did not have that sum, he said he would borrow it from friends.

Later that day, he claimed to have borrowed about half the money. He also said he would get into trouble if his company knew he had illegally used his client's account.

Not wanting to see her 'boyfriend' in trouble, the woman called her sister, who works in China, to remit $6,100 to him.

But the man failed to log in that afternoon, as he usually did. Now suspecting a scam, the woman called him on the phone. He denied receiving the money.

She then tried to get her sister to stop the fund transfer but it was too late.

Last Friday, she made a police report in Singapore and in Hong Kong but was told that her chances of getting the money back was slim.

'I was too engrossed in the relationship, and I used my heart to think instead of my head.'

She added: 'Things on the Internet can't be trusted. You must be 110 per cent on guard.'

This story was first published in The Sunday Times on 19 October 2008.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:53 pm

OP wrote:

as long as COMPASSION underlies one's motives at all times

You know what? I admire that. Really. I can't do it, none of the rest of us here can either, but maybe you can. I challenge you to spend six months here, learn more about what you are trying to lecture us on, then see if you feel the same way.

Lead us by example.

I'm off to do something more productive now, like getting a lad on safari.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1vNBdXqZqQ

Romance victim used as a mule.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:56 pm

Quote:

My argument is that one should maintain a compassionate and humanitarian outlook throughout one's endevours.

A real life criminal is very quick to sniff that out and set you up on that basis either as a victim or at least as an enabler. Don't ever think, my young friend that your semblance of altruism will be regarded as noble and get you a special "in" with a criminal subject. To the contrary, these criminals have a special contempt for tenderheartedness, they call naive victims "maga". If you cast your pearls before them, they will trample the pearls, turn to rend you, and despise you all the more.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:58 pm

Tuco wrote:

A real life criminal is very quick to sniff that out and set you up on that basis either as a victim or at least as an enabler. Don't ever think, my young friend that your semblance of altruism will be regarded as noble and get you a special "in" with a criminal subject. To the contrary, these criminals have a special contempt for tenderheartedness, they call naive victims "maga". If you cast your pearls before them, they will trample the pearls, turn to rend you, and despise you all the more.

Wow. That was downright poetic! Very Happy

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:06 pm

@modernPrimitive

I do inherently agree that compassion is a positive virtue. But I also believe that it should be doled out responsibly. It's the whole "Tossing pearls to swine" scenario.
Typically anyone with a predatory mentality will simply take advantage of anything that they possibly can. These scammers have already proven themselves more than happy to do that.

I will not insult your ideology. I believe that it is a good thing. In this ugly and disgusting world, it's actually nice to see people who still believe they can make lemonade out of lemons.
I do not however believe that it is a practical or possible path to take while baiting. I would suggest that you research it a bit and maybe come up with some semi-workable theories that we all can discuss. I know that if you present something here at eater in a theoretical sense and ask for opinions, people will give them to you with some thought going into their responses. But it is still very important that you word it in such a way as to not attack anyone or chastise their opinions.

We're people here too. Some of us enjoy being educated on new and possible scenarios that involve psychology and social sciences. Even for those who don't adhere to your ideology, it will still make them better at their baiting practices.
Wink

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:08 pm

I would not even bother giving this tool these articles. Why? Because he will use the ever-predictable, "yes, but not every scammer does that" tripe. Or the equally popular, "you can't punish all scammers for the crimes of the one" argument.

Seriously, these apologists are never going to change their minds. They think that they are smarter than the rest of the world, that they somehow have a knowledge of human nature that the rest of the world does not have. I have had more arguments with folks like this than I can remember and the results are always the same... they think that we are too hard on the scammers.

I especially love the ones that have spent time in Africa. They seem to think they because of that, no one could understand the scammer mentality better than them. "You've never been that poor with so little opportunity." I guess being poor, uneducated and from a corrupt nation makes them unpunishable? Well, screw that. I have every intention to punish regardless of where they are from. By the way modernPrimitive, you might be interested to know that I have also screwed over plenty of scammers right here in the US. I suppose that is OK by you though, right?