Ethics

By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics and access other forums reserved for members. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join our community today by clicking here.

Baiting Guru Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 3123

After browsing through this thread, I was going to write about the point made above. Now I can only re-iterate it.

If you don't like it, don't do it. You can't change our methodoligy here, we have established and accepted ways with dealing with scammers, criminals, scum, they all fall under the same bracket.

If you feel sorry for them, you're so far left you should be off the coast.

If reform actually worked, then we would do it. It's been proven time and time again that punishment is much more effective.

EDIT: Comment for the OP:

I've re-read your first post, and it strikes me that you are full of yourself. As stated above, you cannot change our accepted ways. No-one cares about the dilemmas we face, otherwise this site would not exist.

Tone down on the arrogance, otherwise you WILL meet your match.

If you politely questioned our ethics, perhaps our responses would be less crude.

FURTHER EDIT:

No, most of us set out with intentions to get trophies/safaris. We are not sidetracked, that's our goal from the start.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:03 pm

I realize that I said earlier there is value in the occasional ethics thread...but now that the OP has come back, this one has taken a turn towards the surreal, It has become an utterly worthless, valueless exercise in using big words and concepts that he doesn't understand, and an attempt to display a wisdom that he clearly does not possess. The OP is now spewing nonsense and platitudes that have zero actual meaning or depth. He obviously believes he has some sort of insight into human nature and the human condition that the rest of us peons don't.

He is wrong. About SO many things, I can't even encapsulate them in one post. And the truth is, it's not worth it.

modernPrimitive wrote:

It's apparent that it's a highly complex ethical issue with a lot of grey areas and no definitive boundaries which is of course why it is such a difficult topic.

No. It's really not. It's actually pretty straighforward. And if you can't see that, then you really do need to just stay away, because you will drive yourself crazy trying to overanalyze something that defies analysis...BECAUSE it is so simple.

I once baited a hitman lad as a single mother with a 5-yr-old son dying of cancer. I told him I had only $10,000 to my name, all of which was needed for cancer treatments to save my little boy's life. I baited him for quite a while, and I have no doubt he fully believed my story. When I pleaded with him to let me use my money to keep my little boy alive, you know what he told me? He said: "If God means for your boy to live, he will keep him alive. If he doesn't, he will take care of him in heaven. The only question is, how soon do you want to join him there? If you give me the $10,000 then you can stay on this earth for longer. God will decide how long your boy stays on this earth. I decide how long you will. Send me the money now."

Sorry but there is simply nothing that we can do that is bad ENOUGH for these criminal scumbags.

Oh, and the term is "lad hugger". You are the quintessential lad hugger...and I could pull literally a dozen lines out of your posts to back that up.

Lad huggers are simply not welcome here. End of story. Run along now.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:21 pm

YeaWhatever wrote:

"but at least you're getting me thinking about this" Well, this is good that you are finally starting to think about this. Most of what you have said so far is massively thoughtless. The notion that prison is bad, I find especially naïve.

I will concede this if you could point me to criminal reform statistics regarding 419 scams (or alternatively an appropriate study on white collar crime in a developing country). If you want to call me naive then back it up with some evidence.

YeaWhatever wrote:

Also, we really do not need anyone as naïve as you preaching to us that we need to think about what we are doing here. Do you really believe that we have not thought about all of this?

No. Not at all. I may not know a lot about the ins-and-outs of 419 scams but I have some insight into human nature and a great deal of insight about the sociology and economics in Africa. So instead of simply brushing me off as naive why don't you try and educate me?

YeaWhatever wrote:

And do you really think that the minor inconveniences that we inflict on these scum is anything compared to the lives these guys destroy?

No. Probably not. The aim of this thread is not to chastise anyone. If you feel you should be chastised well then that's your problem. It's to examine and find workable solutions to ethical problems.

Baiting Guru Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 3123

We are here to educate you. You don't seem to be listening. You also don't seem to be reading the stickies. There is one titled "Ethics".

You're right. You don't know the ins and outs of 419 scams. So stop dictating to us how we are supposed to deal with the scum. If you had come here asking for an insight into scams, so you could be more informed, then you could have expected a warmer reply.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:30 pm

modernPrimitive wrote:

I will concede this if you could point me to criminal reform statistics regarding 419 scams (or alternatively an appropriate study on white collar crime in a developing country). If you want to call me naive then back it up with some evidence.

Why should we? WE have no issues with the ethics behind what we do. Why should we bother trying to enlighten someone such as yourself who comes in here spouting all kinds of uninformed drivel about something that he doesn't understand? At this point you have become nothing more than an annoyance.

Quote:

No. Not at all. I may not know a lot about the ins-and-outs of 419 scams but I have some insight into human nature and a great deal of insight about the sociology and economics in Africa. So instead of simply brushing me off as naive why don't you try and educate me?

Again, why should we? You add nothing to our community. We are here to fight 419 crime. I will say you did get at least that part right - that is what we do here. It is the PRIMARY PURPOSE of every single thing we do...whether it's straight baiting, safaris, fake bank closures, trophy hunting. It's ALL to fight 419 crime. Not "partly", not "some of it" -- ALL of it. And the fact that you can't see that indicates you have no real understanding of scambaiting.

Quote:

The aim of this thread is not to chastise anyone. If you feel you should be chastised well then that's your problem. It's to examine and find workable solutions to ethical problems.

There is no ethical problem, and we have no need to "examine and find solutions". YOU seem to have a problem with it...but that's not our problem. It's yours. I urge you to go do some research on the true impact of 419 crime on its victims. Go read up on this topic that you, for unknown reasons, seem to have suddenly become obsessed with. We have no use for you, unless you plan on joining us in our efforts. We don't need your ethical confusion around here. We're not not confused. We're too busy DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT to waste our time trying to help some troll get a grip on reality.

419Eater is my life Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 441

As all the slightly boring ethics threads, this one, if taken seriously, should not deal with justice and justification as much as with motivation.

So, the main aim is, or should be, to keep the lads from scamming. I think this principle is followed quite well, as all kinds of (otherwise fun) modalities, such as sending silly fake passports or educating lads, are discouraged. Illegal modalities, such as cash baiting or malware spamming are not even discussed.

So, if we agree that wasting the scammers' time and resources would be the most important goal of scambaiting, humiliation and funny results may be secondary results or side effects.

I would probably start to get worried if someone had the choice to either have a mugu complete a 50 page questionnaire and having it scanned or make him sing a self-humiliating song on the telephone and preferred the latter. Ideally, of course, the mugu would have to do both.

So in my humble opinion seeing this hobby from a rather practical standpoint makes more sense than from the primarily "punishing" point of view. Yes, the mugus suffer, but only if it keeps them from scamming in some way or another.

Even tattoos do have some educational aspect: scamming causes pain.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:53 pm

I am not even close to being an experienced baiter, but I can tell you that scammers are trying to take advantage of mostly innocent people. When you say that it is wrong to cause suffering to the scammer, I think you are absolutely wrong. It is only nature to revenge and counter a threat, and that's what baiting is about. We do not pick a group of innocent people in Africa and bother the hell out of them, but we counterattack them when they try to steal our money. The scammers know very well what they are doing when they try to get money out of someone, and they also know the risk. They are breaking the law, and we are people who are defending ourselves from these criminals.

It is the equivalent of getting stabbed during a robbery and then beating up the guy who tried to rob you. We try to do what we can to "get back at them", but we rarely if ever cause the same suffering as they do.

If anyone thinks this is bullshit please tell me and I'll remove the post Wink

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:57 pm

I had a hitman scammer on chat-My character got so upset he overdosed and tried to commit suicide while chatting with the scammer.Didn't seem to slow him down at all.When I told him I was barely saved by the hospital,he started all over again demanding money.Evidently the scammer did not care whether my character lived or died.As far as I am concerned,he is no better than a terrorist.I should feel sorry for him why?

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:05 pm

^^^You shouldn't. Of course.

As I've pointed out at least a couple times in this thread, the one piece that the OP seems to be missing in his "you shouldn't cause suffering" argument is the bare fact that the "suffering" we cause is nothing more than the "bat upside the head" moment when they realize they haven't been successful in their efforts to steal money.

And anyone who feels pity, compassion, sadness, or anything other than disgust for these lads has a seriously skewed moral compass...and should not be lecturing US on morality/ethics. Rolling Eyes

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:15 pm

Okay, I've read a lot of your responses and I hear you. In particular the bait story with the child with cancer. I agree these thugs don't deserve the light of day but I'm not convinced that fighting fire with fire is the best approach.

Perhaps I should reiterate that my point is not to chastise anyone. However I deserve the right to question - especially if I am considering joining in the efforts. Like I said I'm more for scambaiting than not.

My issue is that I don't believe anyone clearly understands the "Root cause" of scamming. Now how can you fight something if you don't understand it fully and completely? It's like an episode of House - fighting the symptoms but not the cause. While I think this work is certainly a worthy cause and certainly doing a lot of good by occupying scammers I'm not convinced of the long-term results. I mean everyone here is saying that scammers don't reform - what does that tell you? It doesn't work in the long term. (That's also not to say that tying scammers up in the interim isn't a worthy cause by any means.)

Now I'm not proposing that I do have a solution or that I understand the "root cause" of scamming by any means. I'm convinced an academic study would yield many different root causes dependent on the particular discipline and point of view but I think this kind of research and approach is far more effective than "fighting blind". That's not to say there isn't a great amount of intricate knowledge held within the community but I believe knowledge must constantly be challenged.

This is why science is so successful because it's methodology is to constantly test new hypotheses through peer review which ultimately leads to progress.

I mean if you're all happy with carrying on the way you are without challenging your methods and mindsets then so be it. But then don't blame me or others for being skeptical about your motives.

Baiting Guru Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 3123

You don't deserve the right. That right has to be earned, by going about your queries in a polite manner. I don't think it's possible for you to join us, if you can't accept what has been said here.

Regarding reform: Time spent with us is less with victims. Better than giving them money and education, to enable them to become better criminals.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:24 pm

"My issue is that I don't believe anyone clearly understands the "Root cause" of scamming. Now how can you fight something if you don't understand it fully and completely?"

What makes you think that I(we) do not understand the root cause? That is pretty damn arrogant of you to presume to know what I do or do not understand.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:26 pm

@modernPrimitive.

I'm understanding a lot of what you are writing as sort of a "request" for some brainstorming (by us baiters) on how to properly rehabilitate a scammer. If this is not what you're trying to accomplish then please correct me.

In general, I don't believe anyone can rehabilitate a criminal so long as the criminal has no desire to be rehabilitated. There is no way to target our baiting activities to this end simply because there is no way to ever gauge the scammer's sincerity.
You have seen a ton of replies stating, "tell us how, we're listening", this is an easy answer for us to make to you because you have no method (even theoretical) that that could possibly be put into action. That's not me insulting you btw, It's just the truth of the matter.

Baiting in and of itself is our only means by which to curb these types of crimes at the moment.
We have no means either foreign or domestic by which to make scammers (criminals) no longer want to scam people. So instead of throwing up our arms and doing nothing, we decide to take the next logical proactive route. And that is of course, protecting the potential victims of these crimes with our time, money, and efforts.

I have no say in the law-making or law-enforcement techniques of countries around the world, hence I really have no say in how they do/do not rehabilitate their criminals. I DO have a tiny voice in how we handle such criminals here in the USA, and I have exercised that voice on many occasions via voting and fulfilling my jury duties. I don't feel as though I can really do much more in that respect.

I really do feel as though you are having a conversation with the baiters in this thread that you should really be trying to have with the scammers instead.

I personally take the same approach on it that the Chinese did with the Monguls.
Why bother "attempting" to rehabilitate them when we can just build a big-ass wall between them and their victims. Wink

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:26 pm

doc holliday wrote:

I had a hitman scammer on chat-My character got so upset he overdosed and tried to commit suicide while chatting with the scammer.Didn't seem to slow him down at all.When I told him I was barely saved by the hospital,he started all over again demanding money.Evidently the scammer did not care whether my character lived or died.As far as I am concerned,he is no better than a terrorist.I should feel sorry for him why?

Okay I hear what you're saying.

I'm not saying that you should feel sorry for him. I'm saying that there's a deterministic cause for scamming and I'm skeptical that a revenge tactic is going to be useful simply because inducing anger, hatred and frustration in the mind of a scammer is just going to make him even more emotionally hardened and more devoted to !@#$ing someone over.

I still stick to the notion that compassion is the answer - perhaps it is merely my philosophical ideology and I realize that other's will disagree with my approach - fair enough. This does not mean that we feel sorry for the scammer it means that we do what we do out of a greater compassion for humanity as a whole. Our first prize is not to merely waste the scammers time (and in so doing protect the innocent) but rather to cause an "evil" man to become an honest man. That is first prize and I don't think frustrating them is going to achieve this. Of course I realize that in the absence of a methodology to achieve this, wasting a scammers time is at the very least a second prize.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:27 pm

YeaWhatever wrote:

"My issue is that I don't believe anyone clearly understands the "Root cause" of scamming. Now how can you fight something if you don't understand it fully and completely?"

What makes you think that I(we) do not understand the root cause? That is pretty damn arrogant of you to presume to know what I do or do not understand.

enlighten me.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:28 pm

modernPrimitive wrote:

I mean if you're all happy with carrying on the way you are without challenging your methods and mindsets then so be it. But then don't blame me or others for being skeptical about your motives.

We don't blame you. The truth is, we really don't give a shit WHAT you think!

Are you really saying you don't understand the "root cause" of scamming? You have got to be kidding. Here, lemme lay it out for you, in simple language:

GREED! And because THEY CAN.

That's it. In a nutshell. I'm sure poverty plays a role...difficult living conditions...war torn countries...yadda yadda. Yeah, nobody said that life was doing to be easy for everyone. It's not...in fact, throughout history for most humans, life is short and full of horrific pain and sorrow. And then you die.

But nothing justifies actively seeking to commit harmful crimes against innocent victims. Nothing. Not poverty, not financial hardship, not war. Nothing. If you still don't get it, then you are a lost cause.

Once again, please recognize that we have no interest in educating you. We are not an academic institution dedicated to studying the socioligical and societal forces that cause criminal behavior. We're too busy DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. If you truly have an interest in joining the fight (which I seriously doubt - you're just saying that so you can have an excuse to continue posting here), then do what we all did - go do your own research. Leave us alone to do our important work. And come back when you have your head on straight and can actually get involved in something of value here.

Baiting Guru Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 3123

That's not our job. The onus is on the one making the positive claim.

It must also be noted that you haven't answered a single one of my points.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:34 pm

"enlighten me." Why do I need to enlighten you? Get over yourself and grow up.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:37 pm

modernPrimitive wrote:

I'm not saying that you should feel sorry for him. I'm saying that there's a deterministic cause for scamming and I'm skeptical that a revenge tactic is going to be useful simply because inducing anger, hatred and frustration in the mind of a scammer is just going to make him even more emotionally hardened and more devoted to !@#$ing someone over...blah blah bladee blah...

Oh please. Rolling Eyes

What a bunch of psychobabblistic balderdash.

I'm with YW - get over yerself. We have no use for you here. Run along now...maybe to do a sociological dissertation on the root cause of human evil or something.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:37 pm

Quote:

enlighten me.

There are 4 pages here. Smile

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:44 pm

^^^Seriously. Mods, can we lock this thread now? Way too much time has already been spent attempting to "enlighten" this person...to no avail. He appears to be unenlightenable, and we have better things to do here.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:45 pm

I personally think this thread should be locked now. It's gettting pointless playing tennis with this issue :banghead:

*EDIT* - sorry, seems others were thiking the same thing as i typed

Master Baiter Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 226

IBTL

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:49 pm

blah wrote:

@modernPrimitive.

I'm understanding a lot of what you are writing as sort of a "request" for some brainstorming (by us baiters) on how to properly rehabilitate a scammer. If this is not what you're trying to accomplish then please correct me.

In general, I don't believe anyone can rehabilitate a criminal so long as the criminal has no desire to be rehabilitated. There is no way to target our baiting activities to this end simply because there is no way to ever gauge the scammer's sincerity.
You have seen a ton of replies stating, "tell us how, we're listening", this is an easy answer for us to make to you because you have no method (even theoretical) that that could possibly be put into action. That's not me insulting you btw, It's just the truth of the matter.

Baiting in and of itself is our only means by which to curb these types of crimes at the moment.
We have no means either foreign or domestic by which to make scammers (criminals) no longer want to scam people. So instead of throwing up our arms and doing nothing, we decide to take the next logical proactive route. And that is of course, protecting the potential victims of these crimes with our time, money, and efforts.

I have no say in the law-making or law-enforcement techniques of countries around the world, hence I really have no say in how they do/do not rehabilitate their criminals. I DO have a tiny voice in how we handle such criminals here in the USA, and I have exercised that voice on many occasions via voting and fulfilling my jury duties. I don't feel as though I can really do much more in that respect.

I really do feel as though you are having a conversation with the baiters in this thread that you should really be trying to have with the scammers instead.

I personally take the same approach on it that the Chinese did with the Monguls.
Why bother "attempting" to rehabilitate them when we can just build a big-ass wall between them and their victims. Wink

You're absolutely right when you say this is a conversation that should take place with the scammers and perhaps that line does deserve further thought.

Now I haven't had much time to think about this, but here's one possible approach:

Now I've read that a lot of safaris and artwork baits involve telling the scammer to find a way to get the necessary finances to pull this task off or he can consider the deal off. If one were to add a personal success story - I don't know, fabricate a story about how you grew up in a poor community and managed to get a university degree through dilligent work and now run a mutinational. Or fabricate and Oscar Pastorius type story where your dream was to run but you didn't have legs and you actually pulled it off. I know it sounds silly, but if you're fabricating stories anyway you may as well try and get the point across that people can haul themselves out of the @#$% and become successful. Bombard scammers with enough of this "mythology" and you may actually get them to think about a thing or two. This would certainly be preferable to simply telling them "make a plan or the deal is off". I'm actually stunned by the resourcefulness of some of them, if they only channeled this skill appropriately.

Look, maybe it's a bit idealistic, and I doubt that the odd story would get the point across, but if you really bombard their psyches with "success stories" you might just cause some changes in their way of thinking.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:51 pm

modernPrimitive,

Considering you live in SA that has become a cesspoll of crime, including many many incidences of 419 crime, I'm really quite astounded by your comments.

Jy praat mos baie kak.