Ethics

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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:26 pm

I like to think we engage in behavior modification. Since we are over intellectualizing this whole thing let view this approach.

By providing necessary negative stimuli to the scammer we are, infact, begining a process which will eventually ween the scammer from the undesired behavior. Thus, we cause the scammer to become, though directed baiting, a responsible member of the internet society. Perhaps by perscribing this behaviorial therapy to the vast majority of the scammers we may have further impact on the culture as a whole, eventually eliminating the need for scambaiting as a whole.

Until that time comes...

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:36 pm

For those with intelligible responses. Thank you. I'm going to ignore the personal attacks. It's apparent that it's a highly complex ethical issue with a lot of grey areas and no definitive boundaries which is of course why it is such a difficult topic. By the way, I'm probably in a different time zone from most of you so please don't expect me to respond in "real time" on this thread.

Too many replies of course to respond to individually, but I have to say that for the most part I agree with many of the key principles in baiting. I have no issue with closing down fake banking sites, wasting baiter's time etc, but I think there are areas where boundaries are crossed - in particular cash baiting, trophies and safaris - of course remembering that each case is unique (so I'm generalizing here). Of course my real issue is with the more extreme examples of these - most of the stories are pretty humorous and do seem to have just cause.

All in all I'd have to agree that baiting is preferable to sitting back and doing nothing and the so-called "karmic balance" would sway in favor of baiting. If I had to pick a side of course it would be the side of the baiters - I'm not a "lad lover" or whatever you call it.

However, I do live in Africa and I'm well aware of the situations and troubles that it faces on an economic level. I also agree that poverty is not an excuse - India is a good example of a country with a lot of poverty and low crime levels. It's really a cultural, social, psychological and historical issue. Basically it boils down to a sort of "victim" psychology such as that expounded by Dr Chika Onyeani in his book "Capitalist *DELETED*", an "empowerment" issue so to speak. I don't want to make this a racial issue because it has nothing to do with skin color per se but rather a particular social and historical backdrop in which certain racial groups simply happen to be the majority.

While many of the baiting stories are pretty humorous, there's an underlying sadness that I feel for SOME of the lads in SOME of the stories. Africa is tough place and everyone wants to make some sort of headway. This is particularly evident in those baiting stories where a potential "real job" is used as bait and the enthusiasm of the individual comes out in his responses - one can't help but feel some sympathy for the scammer who might think this is a real opportunity to make some headway in life. If you've ever been to Africa and seen the economic situations that some people face you will know what I mean - I mean the average annual earnings are around $300. Granted, I realize that there is another end to this spectrum where individuals are not enticed by "honest work".

I think each and every scam and bait has to be treated individually on it's own merits. It's easy to generalize and become blaze about this whole issue but I think the baiter has the responsibility to make sure that they don't become blaze. And I realize how difficult this is because you're dealing with people who lie for a living, so the challenge is in how to evaluate your actions for each situation.

Anyway aside from this whole moral issue which is probably an endless debate I think the core focus of baiting should be to get scammers to stop scamming. That's essentially first prize. Am I right or wrong?

Assuming we all agree about that, what strategies are there that actually effect this? I have read a couple of baiting stories where it does seem this was the outcome (though I realize one can never be certain since we're dealing with liars). What about analyzing the actual strategies used in those stories - perhaps a sticky thread. I think such a focus would be far better that tips and tricks on getting trophies.

One story that comes to mind seems to have had some religious connotations - think it was a church baiting - where lad actually responded by saying that after a certain daily ritual involving prayer he had felt "energized" and "revitalized" and had attained a new zest for life, the upshot was that he had left scamming and was working for some or other church (apparently of course - though the mails did seem genuine). I don't even think this was the intention of the baiter but somehow it seemed to have worked out. I realize this is difficult too because bringing religion into these sagas has a whole set of moral implications of it's own, depending naturally on one's own religious convictions (or lack thereof).

I thin it really boils down to the baiter's focus. What's your intention - is it to get the next trophy or is to get these lads off scamming? Now I'm sure most baiter's do start with a sound moral conviction but don't you think some get a little sidetracked along the way? Just asking.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:43 pm

modernPrimitive wrote:

the upshot was that he had left scamming and was working for some or other church (apparently of course - though the mails did seem genuine)

I haven't been here as long as others, but every time I've seen a scammer tell someone he'd given up scamming, they'd email him from a new account to check and guess what? That's right, he sends them the next email in his script. Big surprise.

If there was a way to stop these people from scamming we'd be all ears. Please tell us how!

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:49 pm

modernPrimitive,

I guess that you don't believe in prison then, huh?

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:50 pm

Badgerbait wrote:

I like to think we engage in behavior modification. Since we are over intellectualizing this whole thing let view this approach.

By providing necessary negative stimuli to the scammer we are, infact, begining a process which will eventually ween the scammer from the undesired behavior. Thus, we cause the scammer to become, though directed baiting, a responsible member of the internet society. Perhaps by perscribing this behaviorial therapy to the vast majority of the scammers we may have further impact on the culture as a whole, eventually eliminating the need for scambaiting as a whole.

Until that time comes...

In a way I think that's a great way to look at it.

There's a term used in risk analysis - "Root cause analysis" and I think until some serious academic work has been done around this area it's going to be hit and miss in causing serious and permanent changes to occur. For each "re-educated" scammer there's probably a new one entering the field. However under the circumstances and within the financial limitations it's probably the ONLY thing that can be done right now.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:59 pm

GomerPyle wrote:

modernPrimitive could always test out his 'non retribution' hypothesis by going downtown on a Saturday night and picking the biggest drunken low life he meets and tell him 'he sucks' to discover if his ideas are shared by the world in general.

People's lives are generally ruled by fear. Hope is a means to escape that fear. Drunken "low lives" behave as they do because of fear. Picking a fight with a low life will serve neither party other than to fuel the grandiose delusions of being a great Samaritan on the one hand and fueling the anger of the looser.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:02 pm

YeaWhatever wrote:

modernPrimitive,

I guess that you don't believe in prison then, huh?

Well that's a hard one. The question is whether the prisons really result in reform. I suppose it's worth a shot, but with the amount of corruption going on, it's probably more likely to turn someone into a hardened criminal than to be of real value. I suppose it depends on the system in that particular locale.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:10 pm

On the subject of ethics, but not on baiting, I must have a woeful machiavellan streak in me, I just caught this news story on teletext, it hasn't made it to the main news site yet, (the Garda statement, read below)

Click

The incident was captured on a camera phone which has since been seized by the Gardai who released the statement that just before he pulled the trigger he said "This is how you kill someone"

I've nominated him for a Darwin award and to be honest I cannot stop laughing. If only all the other sewer life would be so helpful and do the same thing.

back on topic, yeah yeah it'd be a wonderful life if we didn't have to do this, join in or feck off. while I'm writing this I'm sure others have picked up on your accusations of cash baiting, get a clue dude, your self righteous ego has made you miss some of our most important rules

4 little monkeys jumping on the bed one fell off and.......

rte.ie if anyone wants to follow the latest developments on that story.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:10 pm

That's a hard one? Then you truely are clueless.

Master Baiter Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 226

Sir,

You should re-read the baits in which the lad is trying to get what you call a "real job." At almost every step the lad is trying to scam a few bucks for "expenses." It is only greed that drives him not his "enthusiasm" or a "real opportunity to make some headway in life." We live in a cruel word. No matter how you analyze or try to fix it there will always be people who will try and take advantage of other people. This is why criminals come for upper class, middle class, and lower class. This is why success can be found in the lower class, middle class, and upper class.

I could type all day about this but your idealology is much like a scammers second or third response. know matter how much I type or what I say it will not change what is to come.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:22 pm

BluthBanana wrote:

modernPrimitive wrote:

the upshot was that he had left scamming and was working for some or other church (apparently of course - though the mails did seem genuine)

I haven't been here as long as others, but every time I've seen a scammer tell someone he'd given up scamming, they'd email him from a new account to check and guess what? That's right, he sends them the next email in his script. Big surprise.

If there was a way to stop these people from scamming we'd be all ears. Please tell us how!

Yeah, this is probably the case, though I've read a few articles and stories where this does seem to be the case. I certainly don't have the expertise to advise on that, but why not make it a community initiative? An R&D project?

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:26 pm

dadeciple wrote:

Sir,

You should re-read the baits in which the lad is trying to get what you call a "real job." At almost every step the lad is trying to scam a few bucks for "expenses." It is only greed that drives him not his "enthusiasm" or a "real opportunity to make some headway in life."

That actually wasn't the case in this particular story. It seems the scammer actually lost interest in trying to scam money from the baiter but continued mailing him about his new-found religion. Anyway, I'd agree it would still be difficult to determine as fact rather than heresay.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:31 pm

YeaWhatever wrote:

That's a hard one? Then you truely are clueless.

Look if it's going to get the criminal off the streets and temporarily out of scamming then sure it's a worthwhile cause. Whether it's going to have any long term positive effect is a far more complex matter.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:33 pm

You said before, "Causing suffering is causing suffering (period). " Wouldn't prison cause suffering?

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:46 pm

Quote:

Whether it's going to have any long term positive effect is a far more complex matter.

Which can never be resolved by wringing your hands while the criminals are busy.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:47 pm

YeaWhatever wrote:

You said before, "Causing suffering is causing suffering (period). " Wouldn't prison cause suffering?

Yes it most probably would cause suffering. However, in the mind of the criminal there is a definite causal reason for him being in prison. He knows he's there for committing a crime, for being a menace to society. This at least has the POTENTIAL for causing long-term positive change.

In the case of safaris for example the criminal is just getting a run-around - he probably just thinks he's simply really unlucky which just fuels his "victim" psychology. He can't identify an "internal cause" for his distress leaving him "powerless" to change. If he's made aware that HE is the cause of his own suffering then HE is empowered to change it. I'm not saying safaris can't produce a positive change - I think making someone run around enough could lead them to realize that scamming is simply not worth the effort. However realize that this psychological change does not cause the realization that the SELF is responsible for one's misery - hence it might be likely that he would just fall back onto some other form of crime. First prize is to make someone aware that they are responsible for their own misery.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:55 pm

So, by your standard, it's ok to make the lads "suffer" just so long as you let them know why, right?

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:04 pm

YeaWhatever wrote:

So, by your standard, it's ok to make the lads "suffer" just so long as you let them know why, right?

I realize that suffering can be a useful tool for positive change - the old saying "one has to be cruel to be kind". What I'm against is unnecessary suffering - particularly that which results in frustration and anger which really just perpetuates the problem.

I don't think revealing a bait to a scammer is the right tactic either. Letting them know that you've baited them is equal cause for shifting of responsibility from themselves to an external cause. People do it all the time. We love to shift blame onto other parties whether it's our boss, client or partner. (Eckhart Tollie wrote some good stuff about this.)

Exactly how to do this....well I'm not sure, but at least you're getting me thinking about this (and hopefully others too).

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:14 pm

^^^^^ Very well then. Get to work, do it your way, and show us some results.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:21 pm

"but at least you're getting me thinking about this" Well, this is good that you are finally starting to think about this. Most of what you have said so far is massively thoughtless. The notion that prison is bad, I find especially naïve.

Also, we really do not need anyone as naïve as you preaching to us that we need to think about what we are doing here. Do you really believe that we have not thought about all of this? And do you really think that the minor inconveniences that we inflict on these scum is anything compared to the lives these guys destroy?

I don’t know if they allow human contact outside of your commune, but if they do, I suggest that you try to locate some of the victims of these scammers. Talk to them and then get back to us with more of your swell advise.

419Eater is my life Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 416

This may or may not be relevant but Eckhart Tollie is an anagram of "to kill cheater".

Is he trying to tell us something?

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:28 pm

Spudz wrote:

I've nominated him for a Darwin award and to be honest I cannot stop laughing. If only all the other sewer life would be so helpful and do the same thing.

Most sensible thing i think i've seen on this thread. Twisted Evil

@Modern Primitive... I've only been around here for a short time, however, I see many different reasons why people are here. I for example bait 'cancerlads'. They are scum. I actually suffer from cancer and have lost friends to cancer. I don't want to get into any 'high and mighty' arguments about it. I think that if they can be disgusting enough to scam people by pretending to have cancer, then I can be disgusting enough to wind them up and make them suffer for it.

I do see the point of some of these 'Ethics' debates, but to be honest, if you can't stomach it, stay away from it.

Evil or Very Mad

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:34 pm

A person's chances of persuading a scammer stop stop scamming ? = 0

Africa is different to the West. I warned a young Lad from Malawi who I knew was receiving the attention of a scammer from the CC list on the mail. I got a nice reply back and he said he was going to warn his friends about these scams as I suggested, and asked how much I was paid as he wanted the same. Shocked

I let him down gently and pointed out that it was an unpaid job and hoped that wouldn't prevent him doing the right thing. This year I received a mail from him and one from his university, asking me to sponsor him as his funds to finance his education had run out.

Now, I didn't go to university because my parents didn't have the money, and it never occurred to me to ask anyone else. The world isn't like that, and I think that the greatest danger in Africa is the simplistic belief that anything other than hard work gets you money, or that they are owed a free ride by the rest of the globe. I don't tap my friends for money and expect similar respect back.

The world isn't fair, we know that, and many people who don't deserve it bathe themselves in money, but it's not an excuse for thieving, and the scammers we handle are not dying of starvation - all they lack is the latest mobile phone, a BMW (some have one already) and the latest hi fi. The top echelon are wealthy.

What next ? - be nice to the Mafia. Shocked

Pickpockets are people too. Don't blame fraudsters, they help the economy.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:49 pm

i cant believe i wasted 5 minutes on this thread !

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

modernPrimitive wrote:

While many of the baiting stories are pretty humorous, there's an underlying sadness that I feel for SOME of the lads in SOME of the stories. .

I'm not sure if you've read any of the other multitude of ethics threads here, there are a lot of them. What you have posted above summarizes just about every single one of them.

"If you're uncomfortable with something, don't do it."

Eater itself, as a site, has guidelines (and by the way, discussion of cash baiting is forbidden) to follow but it is up to each baiter to decide how to bait and post here within those guidelines.