Dishwasher - Roy and the sewer monster

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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:30 pm

Yet again I am turning to you guys for advice, rather than trust strangers I find through Google.

The Problem:

Over the last 30 years, our estate has been building extensions, installing appliances, blissfully unaware that there is one set of drains for surface water, that drains into a lake at the bottom of the hill, and a seprate system for the foul water, aka the sewer. Basically, because of the difficulty breaking into the terracotta waste pipes, or laying pipes to grids, we are all using the drains for at least one washing machine, dishwasher or whatever, some of my neighbours have whole extension kitchens that connect to the drains.

Lately, after letting us all get on with it for 30 years, the water people have been testing everyhwere, taking photos, and served almost the whole estate with enforcement notices to rectify matters within 28 days, aka the Golden Age of Plumbing - yesterday there were white vans all over the estate, and men in boiler suits sucking air between their teeth.

Solutions:

I only have a dishwasher emptying into the drains, however to get it to drain into the sewer will involve big work and installing a manhole so I am told, that will cost around £1,000 - a bit excessive when the dishwasher cost £11.60 on eBay!

My solution is to remove the external pipe that leads to the drain, keep it in the garage, and block the hole in the wall. For an hour every 2 days, in the dark, the pipe is replaced, we dishwash, then remove the pipe again. Hayley is not having this, as she doesn't want me polluting the fish and ducks in the lake (though it was fine for all the years we didn't know about it).

Plan B is to remove the external pipes, and rig a temporary hosepipe accross the kitchen, so that when we use the dishwasher it will empty into the kitchen sink, and thereby into the sewer. Not pretty, but for an hour every 2 days I can put up with it, especially if I save £1,000.

My Question (at last! Rolling Eyes

)

When it empties, does a dishwasher pump the water out under pressure? Can it pump 'uphill'? I am certain we used to have a washing machine with a similar arrangement, where it emptied into a sink that was higher than the outlet from the washer, but because the waste was pumped out under pressure, it wasn't a problem. Of Course for £11,60, my dishwasher (Indesit) didn't come with installation instructions.

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:40 pm

A stupid, stupid question, but one I have to ask.

There's not a foul water drain anywhere near the dishwasher that you could tap into?

You could always get yourself a 5 gal jerry can (I think most dishwashers use around or less than 20 litres (4.4 gal) then pour it down the toilet, to save a trailing hose and risk of "accidents".

[Edit to add]

I found this

Quote:

The dishwasher is supplied with a water pump, controlled by the programme to pump off the water up to a height of 1m. The minimum height above floor level should always be 30cm. (The maximum extension, when installed horizontally is 3m, at a height of 85cm above floor level.)

here http://www.diynot.com/pages/pl/pl009.php

so trailing a long hose through the house may not work.

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:42 pm

Quote:

There's not a foul water drain anywhere near the dishwasher that you could tap into?

If only, that's the problem. The sink is the nearest thing, but on the other side of the kitchen. A jerrycan would be a load of hassle, but I do own one somewhere.

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:51 pm

Just replace the dishwasher next to the sink, tap onto the drainpipe of the sink and your problem is solved.

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:04 pm

Would've thought that there must be some pressure there. After all, a washing machine empties in the same way - our washing machine drains about 2ft higher than the outlet.

FWIW as there's only 2 of us (mostly) we got one of these The drain empties via a hose straight into the sink.

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:51 pm

I read this to Lovey and here is his opinion:

Quote:

When it empties, does a dishwasher pump the water out under pressure? Can it pump 'uphill'

No! No!

He also goes with the vampire. Wink

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:33 pm

We solved a similar problem this way. We created a mini septic system for the dishwasher only (under cover of course). Used a couple of 5 gallon buckets as the septic tank and 12" of gravel for the leach line. It has worked tor 8 years now. I am sure some authority would frown on that, but, hey...

We put a planter over the whole thing so it gets used for flowers and garden and no one is the wiser (except for 1000,000 people on the internet now). Does Eater strip my IP? Laughing

The only thing that would be harmful to the ducks and other wild life (remember ducks are bottom feeders) is the detergent. The food particles are run through a grinder and are... well... food stuff. I'll wager that your duck population will go DOWN once this expensive project is implemented. Confused

There are "portable" dishwashers that are on casters and hook up to the kitchen sink and drain for the period of time it is used. They are on casters. I don't know if the pumps are any different (i.e., stronger) that nt built in units, so they will pump at least 1m in elevation.

I feel for ya man! Sad

edited for spelling

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:31 pm

the vampire wrote:

Just replace the dishwasher next to the sink, tap onto the drainpipe of the sink and your problem is solved.

Yeah right - long time readers will know how long it took me to get the kitchen the way round it is now. I could put the dishwasher where the washing machine is now, but then where does that go?

I just want to know whether it can pump uphill. If I could move my kitchen, or the waste pipe, I would, but I can't.

ETA: Howsabout this, then: Dishwasher Drain Waste Hose Extension

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:03 pm

As Old 7 said, yes it will pump uphill to a height of 1m or so (pump is similar to washing machine pump). A hose extension (like the ebay one) shouldn't be a problem, even if it's longer that the specs say.

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:59 pm

attach an extra pump to the dishwashing pump. I've seen that before for people who wash in the basement/ cellar.

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:09 pm

If it's against an exterior wall you could always drill through and run a pipe from the dishwasher to the drain. It doesn't need to be big bore as your filter catches all the major gunk and all you're looking to do is get rid of the dirty water.

Otherwise the extension pipe is the way to go. Personally, I'd run it along with the dishwasher plumbing and then box it in so it doesn't look too rank (I'm assuming the plumbing meets up with your kitchen sink).

Like iMike says, you've probably got a couple of feet vertical height to play with, but I wouldn't go for it. You're better off running it level or below outlet height. Otherwise, if any gunk does get through, you run the risk of building up a blockage. If you do decide to go with a pipe at higher level, just remember to use a dishwasher cleaner every now and then to get rid of the grease build up that will form in the pipe.

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:52 am

Wow. All this man talk is making me hot! I love it when men talk about pumps, connectors, pressure buildup, hose extensions...

(running off to take a cold shower now.)

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:50 am

You must make sure that there is a trap to prevent nasty gasses from entering your house. The normal installation here is a t-connection that feeds the waste water into an inlet of the garbage disposal AKA grinder and an outlet above the sink as a backup when the main line is plugged. The pump will push the waste water above the sink level, but not much more. I would suggest putting the dishwasher where the washer is right now as its output is considered black water and create a gray water leach field for the washer output. I've got a set up like that and the fruit trees that it feeds just love it. The phosphates in the detergents really get the things blooming.

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:57 am

Quote:

If it's against an exterior wall you could always drill through and run a pipe from the dishwasher to the drain.

No i couldn't, that's what I'm doing now, and the drain is not happy.

Quote:

attach an extra pump to the dishwashing pump

My favourite suggestion so far, it doesnt have to be a biggie like my shower pump. Anyway some grown up plumbing types are coming round tonight, I'll let you know what they say.

Elite Baiter Joined: 16 Jul 2008 Posts: 1407

I'm in the States. And my home is fairly new. The dishwasher dumps right into the same drain as the kitchen sink. Of course they are right next to each other.

If possible, you could put a "Y" onto your current sink drain, and just dump into that.

Or, if you watch the sitcom "Seinfeld" you could just start washing your dishes while you take a shower.

Kill 2 birds with 1 stone that way.

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:11 pm

I had a similar thing last year with a leaking mains pipe in the front garden. I called a few plumbers and they all quoted £500.00-£600.00 plus and said it's the digging to find the leak that costs the money. The repair only takes a few minutes. They really get the vapours if they have to get a spade out of the white van.

So I went out and it only took me half an hour to locate the leak and dig a hole big enough to get to the problem. They still wanted to charge me as "that's what we charge for fixing leaks underground". I did it myself in the end. Total cost £8.50 for a thing called a lead lock and some pipe.

Anyway back to your problem. If you have enough height can you put the dishwasher on a plinth and pump the water out to a water butt?

I save a lot of waste water this way and use it in the garden. My water is metered and I only pay about £160.00 a year.

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:08 pm

Cachuma wrote:

Wow. All this man talk is making me hot! I love it when men talk about pumps, connectors, pressure buildup, hose extensions...

I can start a thread about an major overhaul of a car engine just for you Wink

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:06 pm

I was just talking to my coworker, he's doing an addition to his house right now. He said what he did is took a 45Gal plastic drum and drilled holes in the bottom and put in gravel. Then go down to the hardware store and pick up some PVC or ABS (with holes) for septic leech lines. It'll never rust and it'll filter through the gravel. Just dig a hole and drop it in.

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:01 pm

^^^I did the same thing for my gray water system. There was no assembly manual so I got into an argument with a neighbor over the holes being up or face down on the pipe. Even though it was my system, I compromised with holes on the side.

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:03 pm

^^ hahah, good compromise. All in all it's a great idea. A VERY quick little project for a septic tank.

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:19 pm

Dishwashers normally come with a hookend outlet pipe for drainage into a sink anyway, for reasons of hygiene. Ideally, the outlet pipe shouldn't be attached to a washing machine trap underneath the sink, because contaminated water from the sink and perhaps an existing washing machine connection makes its way back into the dishwashing machine sump, to be squirted all over your food-contacting items.

A long pipe, particularly one at a higher level, would cause the same problems, dirty water getting back into the machine. Go with a pipe hooked over the sink. It's possible in some cases to bring the pipe up at the back of the kitchen sink, so that it isn't in your way. You also need to make sure it's not going to fall away from the sink and pump water all over your floor, of course.

Yes, I was in domestic appliance repair for a few years. Jack of all trades.

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:48 pm

Quote:

overhaul of a car engine

Back to dishwashers!
Smile

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:03 am

I should've added that the end of the outlet pipe should be raised, or the water will siphon out. If you must use a trap connection to the sink waste pipe, the dishwasher outlet connection needs to be the highest one up , and the end of the dishwasher outlet pipe should go up and back down to the connection, in an inverted 'U' fashion. It's really important to your health to keep that cruddy water out.

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:26 pm

Hmm. We're not allowed to go the soakaway route, next door did that and they have an enforcement notice too. after much thought I'm not keen on barrels of waste water, or the chance that my extension hosepipe (naughty man talk for the ladies) comes adrift and floods the kitchen

2 people in the building trade have told me to do it properly, ie dig up the back yard to find the sewer pipe, then put in a manhole, and pipe the waste into it, and reckon £1,500 should cover it. Shocked

When one of my punters, a builder who owes me £268, said he'd do it in 2 days, for £500, I snapped his hand off, as I will only have to stump up the difference. He puts in kitchen extensions all the time, and has to do it this way. He also reckons the water nazis will want to see it in action, and aren't stupid.

There will be photos, be warned.

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:26 pm

We've not had anything, but next door have just been served with notification. Their central heating flue exits the outside wall just over the rainwater drain. Apparently, the lake's being polluted by condensation dripping from the flue down into the drain. Shocked

She thought someone was taking the p*ss at first, but the utility company have confirmed that they've got to re-site the boiler.

If they're so concerned about the water quality, perhaps they could start by fencing the lake off properly. That might stop the local dogs from crapping at the water's edge & the local chavs from p*ssing in it on the way home from the pub.

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