Legality?

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Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

Hi, I'm new here Smile

I've just been introduced to the site, and I love it!
I'm really excited to get stuck in, but I am unsure of the legality of promising the scammer money, as many of the baiters do, with no intention of giving them a penny. Is it allowed?
Thanks in advance Very Happy

ps im 15

Baiting Guru Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 3123

Hi and welcome. Of course that is allowed, that's what they do to us after all.
What isn't allowed is you reversing the scam, i.e getting money out of them. That isn't discussed here, and is illegal.

Here comes the grumpy bastard bit: do your parents know? You are dealing with criminals here. As long as you follow safe baiting procedures (no R/L details, IP free e-mail e.t.c) then you should be fine, but just in case Wink

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

Thats what I was thinking, but what they're doing is illegal, so is it not illegal for us?
Thanks for the welcome Smile

Baiting Guru Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 3123

Promising us money is not illegal. Getting us to pay for fees is not illegal. The illegal part comes when 'we' (victims) pay the fee, then our 'fund' isn't released. That's fraud.

Even getting scammers to pay for travel, as many of us do, in safari baits, isn't illegal. Just extracting raw cash from them is.

Along with sending them viruses, e.t.c

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:29 pm

I could promise to give you Buckingham Palace... I'd be lying but it's not illegal.

If I say "I will give you Buckingham Palace for a pound" and then I take that pound off you and don't give you Buckingham Palace, then I have commited a crime (obtaining property by deception).

So as long as you don't ask for money off them (called "cash baiting" around here and frowned on for obvious reasons) as far as I can tell you're not breaking any laws.

And welcome to Eater! If you decide baiting is for you and you fancy a go you might like to apply for a mentor and read the stickies.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

ok, thanks very much for clearing that up.
So, for example If I was to promise them money for doing an action, they do the action and I dont pay them, thats ok?
I'm just telling my mum now Smile

And I use googlemail, what IP free?
Thanks very much Smile

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

Oh good, we haven't had one of these threads in a while. Dr -- may I suggest doing a search for "legal" or "legality" and then spend a while reading? While your question is understandable, our mission is not to provide legal advice to members (it wouldn't do them or us any good).

All sorts of things are illegal. Speeding is illegal. Many people do it. Some people drink before they are of age. Again, illegal. It's up to you to consider whether you are comfortable in baiting. If you are not comfortable, please do not do it.

Welcome to Eater.

Baiting Guru Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 11857 Location: UK

@ baiterg123, you have a PM.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:54 pm

I do remember one thread where we discussed this. I thought it might be illegal to enter into "contracts" with scammers to promise them money for holding up signs, or whatever. This was former mod Eight's response:

Quote:

You can't commit a crime merely by entering into an agreement or making a fake document, you need to have some kind of mental element, intention or motive to go with it. It's called mens rea. An act (the actus reus) is only illegal when done with the necessary mens rea for the offence, usually dishonesty for fakes, forgeries and assorted lies. In my jursidiction, I very much doubt that the baiters have what is required to meet the legal definition of dishonesty.

Judging from some of those fancy words, that's a legal opinion. Wink

.

The thread is here if you're interested.

If you're worried about getting sued by a scammer (insanely unlikely), it's very easy to construct your contracts so the scammer will default on some technicality. Twisted Evil

Baiting Guru Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3193

If you promise a lad payment for goods or a service and he performs that service or sends the goods, then it is probably breach of contract (civil) and obtaining goods by deception (criminal).

But who is going to report you? The lad might complain a lot, but no way is he going to the police.

If you want to be absolutely clean, these are the ways it has been done:

The goods/services are below standard (almost all the time, they will be.)
The goods/services are demonstrations to ensure he is worthy of donating money to. You wiggle the $$$, but don't promise anything. See Shiver's art baits on the letters page of the main site.
Oops! we've found out you're a scammer. The deal is off. Point out where in the contract it says if he misrepresents himself the contract is void. Point to the form he filled in saying he'd never committed a crime.
If the lad is representing himself as being a real charity, then your contract is not to pay the lad, it is to pay the charity. The lad is probably not authorised to enter into such a contract, and if he is, then he's not going to complain you didn't give the money to charity, and he's the only one with standing to complain.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

Would it be ok if you could please remove my old username from your posts?
As it has been brought to my attention that I can be easily identified by my old one. Thank you very much! Smile

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

Scam Patroller wrote:

@ baiterg123, you have a PM.

I already sent him that PM. Wink

I'm literally biting my cheek to keep from spewing forth on the legality issue (you cannot know how hard it is for me to do so).

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

Please could you remove my old name from that last post? Cheers Smile

Also I would really appreciate it if you did, as I am still scared to do it Razz

Thanks very much

Baiting Guru Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 11857 Location: UK

@ baiterg123, references to your old username now removed.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

Thanks very much Smile

*tips hat*

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:18 pm

I look at it this way.

He is using a fake name and email address.
You are using a fake name and email address.
If you both enter a contract for something that doesn't exist and one of you breaks that contract, who is going to take who to court?

Simples?

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:18 pm

Welcome to Eater baiterg.

But, 15, middle of the day during the week, shouldn't you be in class Wink

Baiting Guru Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 3123

OD, methinks baiterg is in the UK. It's 1721 here Wink

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

Well, Im from the UK, but I'm currently in my last week of a holiday in the Philippines Smile

Baiting Guru Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 3123

Well in that case OD's comment still stands. You should be at school, boi!

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 9

What? 7000 miles away? Razz