Warning about "downgrading" to XP on newer machine

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Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:20 pm

Today, me being my ADHD-ridden self, decided to see what the framerate for a very demanding game called Crysis would be under Windows XP. So, I resized my partition and allocated 20gb for the install. Then all the problems started happening. First off, my XP disk wouldn't install. I would get a BSOD after waiting the the preinstall loading. I figured it was a faulty disk so I burned from a stored image file on my external HDD and attempted with this CD. No luck. Eventually I realized that the problem was smething I hadn't encountered in a long time. Apparently, since I have a SATA II drive, XP doesn't come with the drivers for my SATA controller. So after copying the CD to my drive from a mounted image, I had to use nlite to integrate the necessary drivers for it (the conventional way of doing this is too burn to a floppy and load the third party driver at the beginning of the setup; the last time I had to do this was on a SCSI drive back in '01). So finally the installation starts. Once I'm through, I install some network drivers I had handy which installed fine, but apparently, the x64 Zero Configuration Utility doesn't recognize wireless networks that don't broadcast SSIDs. So I had to boot up a friend's PC which was running Win2k Pro (Which I miss sorely) and download the Intel PRO Wireless program so I could connect. I had to use my microSD card from my cell phone so I had to reboot my friend's machine so the necessary drivers could install for the card reader. So once I FINALLY got the wireless going, I install video drivers. Then the hunt for audio began. My audio card is a ID92HD71B7, labeled as IDT High Definition Audio in Device manager.......once it gets installed properly. Apparently, this card was made by SigmaTel and was bought out by IDT. IDT made the ingenious decision to leave all driver updates to OEMs, so the only drivers out there are for Vista, and the chances of those lazy OEMs getting off their arse and supporting XP are close to nil. So after hours of hunting I finally gave up. The MS UAA driver worked in bits and pieces but didn't enable full capabilities. So a message to all those who wish to "downgrade" or dual boot XP: If you have a IDT component or SATA II HDD, it isn't worth the trouble. Sometimes, you just can't teach an old dog some new tricks.

I wound up crawling back to Vista and wiping the partition with XP and reinstalling Linux Ubuntu over it. Surprisingly enough, I found Vista to perform faster than XP did when I returned (of course, after some tweaking).

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:07 am

I may not know of what you speak, but I defend to the death your right to say whatever it is you said

I'm still trying to find the *any key* on my k'board

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:28 am

I think it's something to do with the on/off button but I don't like to mess with things that are magic. Very Happy

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:39 am

I have a button on my PC called 'www'. How often will I find a word with 3 w's in it?

There is another button called 'wake up'. But if I'm asleep, how will I know how to press it?

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:01 am

Microsoft to Ex - You've been pwned.

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:50 am

The last two motherboards I bought came with a BIOS that detected SATA drives from the start. I really don't know why boards that took SATA drives ever came without this ability.
I don't believe in hiding SSIDs. It makes thngs harder for authorised devices to connect, and it won't deter a determined hacker. I rely on encryption.

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:02 pm

^^^^^

The BIOS can detect the SATA II drives fine, the problem is that the Windows XP setup disk was branded back in '05, and as such, it can't recognize SATA II drives, just SATA I. All mobos have chips called controllers that act as traffic directors for the various buses on the mobo itself and if you don't have a driver to recognize these controllers, you can't use anything that requires them. A lot of people had this same problem back in the days of SCSI. As far as my WAP, its both SSID hidden AND encrypted. I like to make it hard for the crackers.

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:42 pm

That's exactly why I haven't downgraded to XP on my new system. Vista is really ticking me off (slower than molasses and I'm getting ready to switch to Opera as FF keeps hanging). But I know that inevitably there will be incompatibilities with the new hardware and missing drivers that will turn a downgrade into a nightmare.

I wrote to Microsoft and told them their plot to foist a sub-par OS on the world had finally managed to make a Mac fan out of me, but surprisingly, I haven't heard back either...

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:47 pm

I'm just not ready to deal with Vista for lots of reasons, some of which undoubtedly springing solely from my native paranoia. I just bought a nice new Velocity Micro quad-core computer, but paid an extra $75 to have THEM downgrade it to XP. They promise me that I can reload Vista any time I want to (although there might be a small fee that I can pay by Western Union).

[rant]
To me, Vista, and especially Office 2007, are dumbed-down versions of the real thing. It's as though Intel was giving us all this new processing power, and the Authorities decided to use it all giving us a prettier user interface instead of more true computing power.

I'd move to Macs or even Linux, except that Excel is a mision-critical application for me, and both Office for Mac and Open Office's equivalent on Linux run like molasses in January for my applications.
[/rant]

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:03 am

^^^^^^^^^^

@ MikeHawk

Its partly because of Mac users and the Mac advertising campaign that MS tried to cater to people impressed with eye candy. Go for Linux. I myself use Linux a lot more than I thought I would (for personal uncoventional reasons). When they make Crossover more compatible, Linux will be a more serious competitor with Windows and Mac. Just grab the firmware for your wireless NIC before you setup so you don't waste your time diddling with it for hours.

If you wish to make Vista run really really fast, do what I did:

1.) Disable Aero
2.) Disable UAC
3.) Clear programs out of your startup

And voila, super fast Vista. I can explain how each one affects performance if need be. I did more things, but those are the main easy ones.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:13 am

@Ex: thanx. I understand that Macs are slow on Excel because the code hasn't really been tuned very well. For all I know, Excel runs in some kind of interpreter mode on Macs. It wouldn't surprise me.

But since you know so much about Linux, have you ever compared the speed of Open Office Calc (or whatever its spreadsheet is) with Excel? My first impressions were that it was no faster than Excel on a Mac, but maybe things have gotten better since. By "speed" I mean how long it takes to do oh, say, 50,000 iterations of a macro that recalculates 500 cells using transcendental regression functions each time its run. My standard run takes about 15 minutes on my crummy 3-year old P4/2.8Ghz windows machine, and over an hour on the biggest baddest Mac Pro workstation they can throw at it.

Also, the fact that I can make Vista almost as fast as XP pro by disabling Aero, etc. is not exactly a compelling reason to buy 4 new Vista licenses for my whole network! No, thanks, I'll wait for Win 7 and then see.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:15 am

Use 'slipstreaming' to create an up to date version of your old XP install cd. Just google it.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:39 am

@ Dutch

That's what I did to get the XP disk to install in the first place by loading drivers for the SATA II controller into it (via nLite), but the ultimate problem was no sound compatibility because IDT decided to leave drivers up to the OEM and didn't provide and support on their part to endusers. Usually in this case, I'll force the OS to install the drivers and see if that works, but MS put extra protection on the x64 version of XP and I just decided I couldn't be bothered with it anymore.

@ MikeHawk

Admittedly, even though I use Linux, I don't use Open Office. I just installed Excel through Crossover Office, which is sort of a Windows emulator for Linux. I couldn't tell you exactly the speeds. My Linux use involves messing around with Compiz Fusion, learning to code, and other activities. I would ask music man if you see him around or maybe the one or two mods here who use Linux if they drop by this thread and see if they could offer more input. My advice to make Vista fast was really directed towards current Vista users. If you are planning to experiment with Linux, I must say, you must be patient. Out of the box, Linux will install most drivers except for copyrighted ones, namely, wireless NIC and video. Have these handy before you setup installation and you will avoid a lot of headache. Once you get past installing drivers, you have to discover the look and feel of Linux. You most likely will start off with Ubuntu, and the GNOME desktop.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:50 am

X64 is a small drama, to be used for office use only. I've got a PC running that OS, working fine, but installing a game on it is fraudstating. Finding the right drivers is terrible from the day I installed it. I would have tried a 32 bit XP version for playing Crysis if I were you (but since that game has been designed for DX10 I still think Vista is the better option graphic wise)

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:56 am

^^^^

I play it in DX9 mode because I tweaked the game to apply the so called DX10 features. Most of them work in DX9 but some don't, such as object motion blur. I get better performance without loss of quality. Its funny how XP is the new 98SE/Win2k.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:58 am

@Mikehawk, Excel doesn't run in an interpreter mode, it's OS X native (Office 2008), and runs absolutely fine, maybe you tried an older one which ran under Rosetta (Power PC translator). The Windows native version runs OK under Crossover and perfectly under VMWare fusion and these are both interpreters of sorts but why bother if there's an up to date Mac version easily available.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:07 am

LINUX! LINUX! LINUX! happy crowd

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:15 am

^^ What frame rate do you get on Linux playing Crysis? Wink

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:29 am

^^^^^^

@ Rodus

I knew the Evil One couldn't stay away from this thread for long.............

Anyway, back on topic, as it turns out MS plans to end mainstream support for XP in 04/09, so as we all know, if the big MS says it, the OEMs obey.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:33 am

Rodus wrote:

@Mikehawk, Excel doesn't run in an interpreter mode, it's OS X native (Office 2008), and runs absolutely fine, maybe you tried an older one which ran under Rosetta (Power PC translator). The Windows native version runs OK under Crossover and perfectly under VMWare fusion and these are both interpreters of sorts but why bother if there's an up to date Mac version easily available.

Yes, it runs fine. My 5th grade son does his homework on our Mac using Excel. It's just really SLOW on serious compute-bound jobs. As I said, the same Excel macro runs 4x faster on my old old windows box than it does on a maxed-out Mac Pro. I took my standard analysis routine into the Apple store and they tried it on all their machines with the latest software, and none of them came close to my old Pentium 4 machine that's 4 years old. Excel on the Mac is fine for data entry and making charts and such, but for serious number crunching, it's just plain slow. I know Mac owners have a hard time accepting that particular reality.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:42 am

Ex. wrote:

MS plans to end mainstream support for XP in 04/09,

Nope. July 2010 are the latest plans for life cycle support on XP SP2. And considering the new hype: eee subnotebooks are shipped with XP this day I'm sure support will be extended until 2012 at least.

ETA month added

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:48 am

I don't know what you're worrying about, I just upgraded this weekend my oldest laptop from Win'98 to Millennium Laughing

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:54 am

I wouldn't call that 'upgrading', Bill. Good luck anyway. Very Happy

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:36 am

^^ I would. Windows 98 was already born dead. It was sort of like the mutilated half-brother of Windows 95. They corrected a lot of shit when they offered WinME.

But then again, my favorite Windows is Windows 2000.

Anyway, I don't use Windows much. Haven't seen it now for a few months.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:04 am

mikehawk

Quote:

I know Mac owners have a hard time accepting that particular reality.

not at all mate, thats shoddy MS programming for you, they don't know what multi threading means. Laughing

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