Processing Payments - ATM Card?

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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:39 pm

Yes, I am new. Forgive my “Skill Level 1” question.

Mr thomas pasko ([email protected]) and hailing from the Bronx, sent a FedEx with an “ATM” card so that I could process payments on his behalf.

Unfortunately, my address got mixed up with that of the old Pearl Brewery in San Antonio Tx (http://www.pearlbrewery.com/) and my attempts to have it resent to the local FBI office were a failure. Rolling Eyes

But curiosity has gotten the better of me, what was in that package and how does that scam work.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

There may in fact be an "ATM" card in the package, but it will cost you to "activate" it. So, after you send $$ via Western Union for the activation code, the code of course, won't work.

Then the lad will suddenly remember some other fee that's needed ... and so on, and so on.

Needless to say, drop contact with the lad for your own piece of mind.

Baiting Guru Joined: 07 Jan 2007 Posts: 2922

If you need to give a lad an address may i suggest http://www.fakenamegenerator.com/ Sending stuff to a brewery and the police or FBI would involve an ITP (innocent third party) and we don't do that.

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:30 am

Don't mean to be disrespectful but why is trying to get a scammer to send evidence (including fingerprints and an established chain of custody) directly into the hands of the agency charged with gathering such evidence a violation of 419 rules?

Again, sorry for the "skill Level 1" question.

The brewery, by the way, went out of business and was closed years ago.

Baiting Guru Joined: 07 Jan 2007 Posts: 2922

Because the police or FBI won't do anything with it.

Also chances are it was paid for using a skimmed/cloned/stolen credit card with fake (ie non lad) details, the lad is out of the fbi or police jurisdiction even if his prints were on record, and he's using fake names, fake email addresses and a pay as you go phone using false info whilst sitting in an internet cafe full of fellow scammers.

So the police have next to zero to go on and could end up spending valuable time trying to find out who, what, where, when and why when they have got better things to do.

If the police or FBI really gave two shits about 419 scammers we wouldn't be here.

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:32 am

i dont actually think the FBI is an ITP, even if they wont do anything about it. and for another thing, if they get enough scammers sending them fake checks and ATM cards, they might in fact eventually do something, even if its just to put them on a watchlist in case they ever try to enter the US. I just dont see how getting them to send stuff to the seattle space needle and sports stadiums isnt ITP, but the FBI is...in fact, in the sections of this site where it says that it is generally acceptable to use the space needle or fenway park, it also mentions public buildings. ill try to dig up the posts im talking about and post them here.

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:43 am

You are of course perfectly entitled to send whatever evidence you have to the FBI or any other law enforcement or Government agency. Then sit back and wait to see what they actually do with it........ *crickets*

Internet scamming is a multi-billion dollar worldwide business and our over-extended and under-resourced agencies just cannot spend manpower on tracking down one anonymous individual and totally untraceable, probably on the other side of the world. If only.

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:50 am

ok here it is, from the help hints and tips FAQs, baitsafe section:

Addresses for football stadiums and public buildings such as the Seattle Space Needle are generally acceptable. I tend to use fictitious Harry Potter addresses.

and when you think about it, this makes sense; why avoid implicating ITPs? i see three reasons:

1 to avoid actually getting them hurt or killed
2 to avoid them getting harrassed, scammed or spammed
3 to avoid them getting their own identity co-opted

it should be clear that the FBI is not going to get violently targeted by lads, nor will they get their own identity co-opted (no more then they already have by lads pretending to be FBI), and as for getting harassed or scammed, well that would be great, cause if they tried that, then the FBI really WOULD do something perhaps.
another thing to consider is that the FBI, CIA, FTC etc, as well as their UK and EU counterparts, are not really third parties at all! the government represents its people, and HOW many millions of dollars/euros/pounds are being sucked away from its people? if the government becomes more aware of the problem as a result (or even if they dont), then why not "forward" them things like this. even if it apparantly does nothing, it might build up over time, and at least it cant hurt. and i really dont think they are a third party as i said, because it is IN the government's interest to care here, and can reporting fraud, even anonymously and with no hope of action, really be unethical here? i think not

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:55 am

@anita
the FBI may not actually be in charge of this type of thing- the FBI handles only domestic law enforcement, while the CIA handles foreign "law" "enforcement". if your lad is really in the US, then yea FBI. otherwise, send it to the CIA in langley, va. if anyone isnt hurting for funds and manpower right now, its the CIA and NSA. now if THEY got it, then maybe your lad would at least end up on a watchlist somewhere.

edit: or better still, get their phones tapped

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:06 am

OK, let's go back to basics - what is this scammers real name and where does he live?

Despite the full force of almost every intelligence agency in the world and despite the fact Osama's phones have been tapped for years and he uses his real name which is on all their watchlists they haven't found him yet Very Happy

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:15 am

he claimed to be from the bronx, and sent the card via fedex, so it seems like at the very least he needed a confederate in NYC.

as for the "full force"...yea its not like any resources have been diverted elsewhere...say iraq? also, getting your phone tapped nowadays really just means that it is fed into a computer database and searched for keywords as best they can, without someone listening to each call. somehow i doubt it is as effective for arabic, so that may explain some of the failure.
one final thought...its easy to say the watchlists arent helping, but then again, Osama isnt trying to enter the US. there is a small chance that if he flew here under his own name, he might be detained. its nice to think that if some of these lads started pestering the gov and got on a list, then they would have trouble entering the US or EU. pardon my naivety, my original point was just that i didnt think it was against the rules, but probably wouldnt do anything either, but who knows.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

Here is the distinction:

If you want to send the information and packet to the FBI, whereby you are clearly identifying yourself as a potential victim of a scam, then fine. This way, if the FBI chose to investigate it, the agents would have a resource in you from which to build a case.

If, on the other hand, you want to just have it re-routed so the packet randomly ends up at the local FBI field office, without any further explanation, then you would just be wasting the FBI's time. What would happen is that it would end up in the FBI mailroom (unless you had it addressed to a specific special agent) and then someone (at best) would roam the halls aimlessly looking for someone who had a clue as to what it was.

Baiting Guru Joined: 07 Jan 2007 Posts: 2922

The way i discern an ITP is as follows...

Did they ask for/or are they expecting the mail/package. If the answer is no then in my opinion they are an ITP.

If you wish to send stuff to the FBI/CIA or other LEO and they know why they are getting it, who it is from and your involvement then fine. But the credit card will be skimmed/cloned or stolen. They will be emailing you with fake information and any names they use will be alibi's etc. Any phones/numbers you have will be registered in fake names and be easily disposable.

Lastly the FBI, and LEO have no jursidiction outside America and the CIA afaik have much bigger and better things to be doing than what you propose which would be chasing a ghost.

Finally Lads Lie.

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:35 pm

^^^What Donato and JMRazor said above, and reiterating that scammers lie, so essentially you would be sending agencies false documents that are not connected to any open case, and were sent from one (likely) fake name and address to another fake name (assuming you are baiting safely). They don't have the time or resources to sort that mess out --especially when they don't even have a real victim--so you are wasting their time and cluttering up their mailboxes, and that is about it. That is what makes them an ITP.

If you want to know the proper process for reporting a 419 scam, check out the government's websites. The agency responsible for dealing with 419's is actually the Secret Service, not the CIA (who couldn't care less about scammers who are clearly not spies or terrorists). And the Secret Service makes it clear that these are very difficult to investigate, and they prioritize crimes in which a significant amount of money was lost.

Below is an excerpt from the Secret Service website:

Quote:

* How do I report a case of advance fee fraud (also known as "4-1-9 fraud")?

The perpetrators of advance fee fraud, known internationally as "4-1-9 fraud" (after the section of the Nigerian penal code which addresses these schemes), are often very creative and innovative. A large number of victims are enticed into believing they have been singled out from the masses to share in multi-million dollar windfall profits for no apparent reason.

If you have suffered a significant financial loss related to advance fee fraud, please contact your local Secret Service field office. Telephone numbers are available in the Field Office Directory on this website or may also be found on the inside cover of your local telephone directory. Any investigation regarding this type of fraud will be conducted on a case by case basis at the discretion of the local Secret Service and U.S. Attorney's Office.

If you ever receive an e-mail or fax from someone you do not know requesting your assistance in a financial transaction, such as the transfer of a large sum of money into an account, or claiming you are the next of kin to an wealthy person who has died, or the winner of some obscure lottery, DO NOT respond. These requests are typically sent through public servers via a generic "spammed" e-mail message. Usually, the sender does not yet know your personal e-mail address and is depending on you to respond. Once you reply, whether you intend to string them along or tell them you are not interested, they will often continue to e-mail you in an attempt to harass or intimidate you. If you receive an unsolicited e-mail of this nature, the best course is to simply delete the message.

Due to a number of aggravating circumstances, such as the use of false names, addresses, stolen/cloned/prepaid cell phones and remote email addresses, verifying the location of and subsequent prosecution of these persons or groups is difficult. The act of sending an email soliciting strangers' assistance in a financial transaction is not, in itself, a crime. The installation of a credible spam filter and contacting your Internet Service Provider may help deter these unsolicited emails. However, there is currently no available program to completely block these types of messages.

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:14 pm

Deliciouspoison wrote:

@anita
the FBI may not actually be in charge of this type of thing- the FBI handles only domestic law enforcement, while the CIA handles foreign "law" "enforcement". if your lad is really in the US, then yea FBI. otherwise, send it to the CIA in langley, va. if anyone isnt hurting for funds and manpower right now, its the CIA and NSA. now if THEY got it, then maybe your lad would at least end up on a watchlist somewhere.

edit: or better still, get their phones tapped

Actually not entirely correct. CIA is not in any business of law enforcement, mainly they just gather info, which can be passed on. CIA does not have Law Enforcement Officers, but FBI does, and FBI can use them overseas (with permission of host country) when there is a US warrant like Khalid Sheik Mohammed when he was arrested by Pakistani police and FBI. FBI is also involved in overseas counter terrorism work too.

CIA and NSA are not going to care about laddies.

I will admit to having used the address for the Nigerian Embassy in emails to laddies.

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:52 pm

^^ hence, "law" and "enforcement" in scare quotes.

so whats the difference between routing something to the NSA who arent expecting it, and routing it to the space needle who isnt expecting it either?

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

I guess the point is why re-route it anywhere? You don't know what's in the package and all you end up doing is having some unsuspecting clerk or secretary waste time trying to figure out why they have received the package.

Is there a larger point that you are trying to make here?

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:07 pm

no , no real "larger point", just saying that if you dont have a drop address, then a public building wouldnt break the ITP rules...of course, a completely nonexistant address is just fine too, i just think its somewhat amusing to think of lads sending fake checks to someplace like the SEC. and no matter what is said here on 419eater, i still think that if the SEC or FTC or similar org got enough fake checks (thousands, say), over years and years, it MIGHT prompt them to take SOME action, albeit a small one. for example, they might learn to recognize fake checks more easily. or they might not, it doesnt really matter- i just dont see why folks here are actively AGAINST it

edit: and most of the time, you WILL know what is in the envelope; a fake check or ATM card

Baiting Guru Joined: 07 Jan 2007 Posts: 2922

^^^

See my earlier personal definition of ITP.

And if you don't have a drop address (available with premium membership btw) then you'll never see the cheque(s) anyway so why does it matter where it goes. Send it somewhere where someone doesn't have to spend part of their day dealing with your mess.

And send it to the SEC or FTC-i'm pretty sure they already know what's out there and again are overworked and underpaid and you want to add to their workload.

http://www.fakenamegenerator.com/

Elite Baiter Joined: 16 Jul 2008 Posts: 1407

Deliciouspoison wrote:

no , no real "larger point", just saying that if you dont have a drop address, then a public building wouldnt break the ITP rules...of course, a completely nonexistant address is just fine too, i just think its somewhat amusing to think of lads sending fake checks to someplace like the SEC.

The only problem with this method is in the US, after the Anthrax scare of a few years ago, unrecognized packages are sometimes met with a call to 911.

In this case, scarce public resourses are used to respond to a non-existant emergancy.

Just because I think its funny to have a check mailed to "A. Soar Ashold" to a safe drop box, doesn't make it funny to send it to an unsuspecting secretary in a office building.

Sometimes there can be real-world consequences for something we find quite funny, if the package is just sent willy-nilly.

Just my $.03

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:12 am

^^"...unrecognized packages are sometimes met with a call to 911. ''^^

i highly doubt that ever happens, unless they are suspicious, like if they TICK TICK TICK. also we are talking about envelopes, not packages, they are much more innocuous
besides, by that logic, the space needle would be off limits too, and its not.

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:31 am

@ donato

--this exact arguement could be used against writing a letter to your congressperson; it will make no difference, it will waste somone's time, they already know your point of view is out there, etc....its only meant to be a tiny voice. if they got enough of them, they might do something minor in both cases. yea right, i hear you say...but is it wrong to at least give them a chance to do so?

p.s. someone has to spend part of their day on your mess no matter what- you're having it mailed!

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:26 am

The harsh fact is that the Govt, its agencies and law enforcement don't have a hope in hell's chance of dealing with these scammers using the justice system. They know it and the scammers know it too. That's the whole reason we bait.

Baiting Guru Joined: 07 Jan 2007 Posts: 2922

First, there is an edit button to save you posting twice in a row.

Second...
Not all letters are 'innocuous' http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-ap-bank-threats-fbi,0,6025088.story

Third...

A congressman expects letters from their constituents and possibly goes as far as employing someone to deal with them on his behalf. Oh and iirc a letter or call to a congressman is seen by them as 100 people who think the same thing and haven't written or called-so yes enough letters (or calls) to your congressman could indeed change something.

I'm reasonably sure that your local police (nor the FBI, CIA, SEC, FTC or even the Secret Service-who from what i read above will only take an interest if 'a significant amount is involved'-i'll hazard a guess that's six numbers before the decimal point, not a fake check for $2,500) do not employ someone to open mail sent directly by lads, paid for with stolen/skimmed or cloned credit cards, sent to someone's alias (because they are baiting safely) and from a fake name at the end of a fake disposable email address and answer (when they have credit) a pay as you go phone number set up using yet again fake information.

They do indeed know what's out there and yet it still goes on-LEO's have better things to do with their limited resources than chasing down a pile of fake information that is going to lead nowhere.

If they got enough of them-how many do you think is enough, 10 000 or maybe 50 000, how long do you think it will take before a lad twigs~2 cheques-ok i'll be generous and give you 3. Say you can get 100 baiters to do this only (which would be doubtful-i struggle to think of 10 that mainly cheque bait) That's 300 cheques a week (more likely two-but we'll say a week) it will take you ( at 15,600 cheques a year) 3.2 years to do it. If you more realistically go (with shipping times) at 1 cheque a week you've just planned out the next 9.6 years of your life, now if you only get 10 baiters you're looking at 96 years. Good Luck.

Now don't you think you could spend that time doing something useful I'd suggest moaning at craigslist, ebay, gumtree etc to do more than they already do. Moan at the email providers who do not include a scam warning when you open an email account and whilst you're there ask why after marking a senders email as spam (or it setting off their spam filters) they still allow it to get to your email account. Oh and don't forget to educate your friends and family so they don't fall for this stuff either.

Or maybe just call your congressman...

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:05 am

im not talking about the justice system, im talking about the possiblity of a VERY SMALL effect, for example, pressuring WU to be more stringent with ID in africa, or becoming SLIGHTLY better at recognizing fake checks/ATM cards. or adding a TINY amount of money to the (probably already tiny) annual budget for anti-scam education. I am not so naive as to think anyone will ever actually get busted as a result, but i guess i am not yet so jaded as to think that no matter what, it will never do anything at all full stop
dont mean to sound combative at all with all this, i just am not ready to believe that reporting wrongdoing (even anonymously, which is essentially what this is) can ever be unethical, even if it stands no chance of doing anything. would you report it if someone keyed your car? there would be no chance of them catching the keyer, but at least it would be figured into the crime statistics, and police spending would be adjusted incrementally. even if the FBI CIA SEC NSA et al cannot and will not do anything, they could at least have their awareness raised. also i would like to reiterate that i dont really think of them as "third parties"...we pay their salary, and if they arent going to address an important issue, then isnt a bit of nuisance (read protest) in order? the nigerian government sure as hell isnt a third party!
**again, i am sorry if any of this is starting to sound combative or arguementative, i honestly just am enjoying the debate and sounding you guys out as to the prevailing wisdom. ultimately, of course, there are already plenty of lone baiters out there sending everything willy-nilly, but i really am enjoying hearing all of your thoughts on the priciple. if i am starting to bug you guys just let me know and i will shut up, its just i have thought along the same lines as the original poster.

edit: as for the anthrax letters and other letter threats, you kind of proved my point- none of them were noticed as threatening before opening and finding the powder (they seemed innocuous), or if they were, they didnt call 911 before they opened the letters. i am definately not suggesting anyone send anyone powder!!

2nd edit: also, arent fake checks actually couterfeit currency? wouldnt your legal obligation be to get it surredered to the secret service (alsmost typed SS but realized that would seem inflammatory lol), or not have it sent anywhere at all?
and yea, it would take a while to get that many checks sent to the FBI. but what if they applied a similar one-equals-one-hundred formula?

to lighten the mood--- http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/UnNews:Analysts_predicting_a_very_close_race_between_ketchup_and_shampoo

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