Split from Radio show thread: Ethics of the Chad Bait

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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:10 pm

Quote:

I do not see the need to get into a scammer's email and assume that all his contacts are scammers as well.

WTF?? What the hell gave you the impression that we were ever in a scammer's e-mail account? We HAVE gotten e-mail addresses of other lads in the same scammer circles as the ones we're baiting, but that's due to MANY side-baits that we use to extract information, and also the fact that when the mugus get fucked enough, they start doing careless shit.

Quote:

Famous for one example will soon have his naked pictures pastered all over the web for no good reason whatsoever.
I followed his chats with 'Anita', aside from wanting to get his rocks off, I dont think he is a scammer.

You don't think we verified that this asshole is a scammer before we set out to ruin his life? Man, get real. We're not baiting to cause any harm to anyone but lads. The thing is, we really hate them. We don't have the same little mushy feeling you get when you think about the poor little scammers. We bleed as much suffering as we can from each one, and none of us give a flying turd whether they're Nigerian thieves/UK Thieves/Ghana thieves, whatever.

I'd apologize for lacking the level of empathy you feel for these poor little creatures, but I honestly can't. They're complete pieces of shit, and I can't wait to destroy Famous. You'll be happy to know that he's not Nigerian though.

Edit: "the" = "that"

419Eater is my life Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 281

Quote:

You'll be happy to know that he's not Nigerian though.

This one sentence nearly makes your entire argument useless, onyenekwu.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:14 pm

onyenekwu wrote:

And at this age people still generalise,about Nigerians all being scammers...

I think that is just another example of the damage scammers can cause: the destruction of the reputation of the good people in their communities.

Edit: once for clarity, once for spelling.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:14 pm

Quote:

Famous for one example will soon have his naked pictures pastered all over the web for no good reason whatsoever.

As Prof said, he is clearly a scammer. And, you did not read through the whole thread obviously, because I know that I posted his format.

Way to throw it out there. Rolling Eyes

You argument that makes this about race or nationality is a weak one. And, I'm sorry, but scamming is very prevelent there. That is fact. If it was prevelent in the US, I would do it the same. In fact, I get so excited I nearly piss myself when I get an American scammer. In fact, I work harder.

Quote:

neither do I support water boarding terrorists to get them to fess up.

I do, but that's another issue we won't discuss.

Quote:

Scammers and their sympathisers are never in the main stream in the Nigerian society.

Then why are there songs about it? Why is it one of the top 5 industries in the nation?

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:43 pm

Wright B Hindyou wrote:

We show them that their lying, cheating and deceiving can also lead to a world of pain -- what better way to make them have second thoughts about what they do?

I have my doubt about that. Would not a lad feel even more justified to scam out the last cent of rich European/US people, after they have treated him so badly? I feel good about impeding scammers and to make it impossible for them to succeed. But I do not think that sending them painful experiences will stop them.

There more force you'd use to change me, the more subbornly I would go on with what I did. I guess that is the human nature, burried deep down in our firmware.

So if the lad will not get killed in Chad, he most probably will continue to bait. You may say, it is a good thing for the lad to die, as he then will leave the victims alone. This depends on how you think about viligant/lynch justice and death penalty. But hope that a man changes positivly because you treat him cruel is unrealistic IMHO.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:57 pm

@onyenekwu:

Just curious: the Chad bait aside: what is your general opinion on what we scambaiters do in here? As you probably read our main goal is to waste scammer's time, money and resources of people that try to steal money from us and others.

In my country I'd have them arrested. Unfortunately that's not possible in certain countries, so making them jump through hoops is the only thing that we can do to at least have some. effect. Like other warning websites we attract possible victims that take the time of Google'ing scammer names/ email addresses. We're hoping they smell the coffee before making payments to this scum.

Again: the Chad bait aside: what would your boundaries be in teaching off criminals when law enforcement forsakes?

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:58 pm

e6ffdyr0 wrote:

Would not a lad feel even more justified to scam out the last cent of rich European/US people, after they have treated him so badly?

He may feel more justified but would he be as successful?
I sincerely doubt that there are that many baits that have caused a lad to go straight (I remember NN having one last year) but they may make the lad think twice whilst he is in the process of scamming. If he's been hurt, he'll hopefully start seeing shadows everywhere.
And that could help a victim to wriggle off the hook.

Baiting Guru Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 11857 Location: UK

onyenekwu wrote:

hemp smoking bus conductors

I love that, next time I insult a lad, I am going to call him a hemp smoking bus conductor type Laughing

Onyenekwu should have that as his custom tag Twisted Evil

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:09 pm

^^^YES!

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:37 pm

In any ethics thread I'll just pop by now and again to point out that scammers are thieves.

If anyone stole from me I would not put them through a financial review to discover whether or not they were justified on the grounds of poverty to steal from me, as I'm sure they would defend their possessions with similar force, and be totally outraged if I stole from them.

There is not a race or religion or nationality allowed to steal on the grounds of misfortune, historic misdeeds or the fact that they live an oppressed life in a corrupt society.

The amusement caused by baiters, is that the thief is falling for the same line they use on their victims, but baiters are not seeking financial gain from what they do.

It is embarrassing they they should be so stupid, but it should be more embarrassing that they are thieves.

Let's discuss the ethics of thieves first.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:22 pm

Nurse Nasty wrote:

Stckson - You just won yourself 'New Member First Post of the Year Award' - You're first post just earned you this.

Nurse Nastys Audi TT

Whoo hoo! Thanks for the kind reception, everyone.

onyenekwu, your complaints about bad behavior seem odd, since you're addressing things that are already verboten in this community. I'm a raw newbie, and even so after a brief search I found rules that outlaw all of the issues you're bringing up. So if you're complaining that these issues aren't being recognized or represented here, well, I disagree. And it's not as if people here are shy about raising ethics issues to keep the community honest - I think that's a good thing.

You say:

Quote:

"I do not see the need to bring scammers parents or siblings into a bait."

Well, there are firm rules against the involvement of innocent third parties. I've seen some debate about where exactly the line is, but even the most extreme baiters try not to involve ITPs. ITPs that were involved in the Chad bait thread were involved by the scammer, not the baiter, and usually woud up being not so innocent (i.e. Famous). Is that where the ITP line should be? IT seems like a pretty defensible position.

You say:

Quote:

I do not see the need to get into a scammer's email and assume that all his contacts are scammers as well.

I don't think anybody disagrees with that. After two minutes of looking around I found this under the What is absolutely not allowed heading here:

Quote:

We do not support the sending of viruses and “trojans” to the scammers, nor attempts to hack or hijack their email accounts and/or computers.

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You: And at this age people still generalise,about Nigerians all being scammers. ... Scammers and their sympathisers are never in the main stream in the Nigerian society.

Again, who disagrees?

Found at the front page of 419 Eater, at this page:

Quote:

Let me be quite clear here; In no way whatsoever do any self respecting 'scambaiters' deliberately target people purely because of the colour of their skin. It is worth noting that it is the 419 criminals who contact us, not the other way around. ...

We are as puzzled as most about why this phenomenon has taken root so firmly, especially in Western and Southern Africa, but there is no question that the problem is not the vast majority of law-abiding people of those countries, but it is a small group of criminals who have taken root there, and it is with those criminals that the problem starts and finishes.

Quote:

You: I know people want to justify whatever they do ... likewise some baiters throw morals under the bus and go the extra mile.

I've only been here a week, but it's already obvious to me that everybody baits differently. Sure, the fascinating Chad bait went farther than most baits, but I don't know that it threw morals under the bus. The baiters checked every new lad to see if they were in fact scammers, they answered questions about ITPs ... they were relentless in torturing the scammers but I don't see that they violated any of what you're talking about here.

Quote:

You: So many instances I have read where innocent parties have been lured into getting involved.Famous for one example will soon have his naked pictures pastered all over the web for no good reason whatsoever. I followed his chats with 'Anita', aside from wanting to get his rocks off, I dont think he is a scammer. In that part of the world,where everyone has got so much time on his hands,you really dont need to prod much to get somebody to cross over. I really do not wish that baiters help the undecided to make up their minds.

So you're saying JoJo, PS&S, and YW lured Famous into scamming with the promise of rich rewards so that they could torture him? (And you're also implying many other cases of this - "so many instances") I didn't see that at all. They checked to see if Famous was a scammer by responding to one of his formats separately. They didn't lure him into anything. Anita didn't offer Famous anything to become a scammer. The fact that he was a scammer was independently checked.

Perhaps your squeamishness comes in from the fact that he didn't try to scam Anita (yet)?

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

@ e6ffdyr0

I tend to agree with the jist of your post, but at least if a lad figures out that making an honest dollar is a better alternative to scamming, he might reconsider. If baiters make scamming seem unproductive, their frustration will accumulate, and eventually they'll be forced to find honest work if they want to eat. ...just think if baiters actually outnumbered scammers. No amount of torment or humiliation could keep them going down the path indefinately.

Part of me winced when Jojo messed with Adamu's chances at a real job with local customs authority, but at the same time going from scammer directly to a position of public trust wouldn't have been good either. If the job had been driving a truck or something, then I think he should have been left alone. Not that it ever comes up very often, but I think ethically a baiter should not interfere with a scammer's attempts to find honest work.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:54 pm

It is my opinion that these scammers would only use their money and power to increase their scamming abilities. I would love to be able to literally run every bit of their lives, making every endeavour they go at a complete failure. I think that would be great. We do try our best to ruin their lives in this exact way.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

Mod edit to remove quote of previous post. ^^^ it's there. Ima

Just curious more than anything else now... but would you say the same thing about American criminals out on parole? Would you interfere with their efforts to find honest work? Or just assume that they're going be repeat offenders anyways?

Statistically, you may even be proven right, but still... seems like you have to give them the benefit of a doubt where they aren't directly performing criminal activity or at least causing anyone any harm.

We'll never really know, but how long do think most scammers stay "in the game"? My feeling is that a few of them eventually rise to become an oga of some sort, but most eventually fall out of it because they really aren't very good at it. But, much like panning for gold, a few rags to riches tales drives the masses to try their hand at it.

Part of me would like you to control their lives, Jojo. Twisted Evil

(I AM NOT A LADHUGGER!)

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:29 pm

capricio wrote:

Part of me winced when Jojo messed with Adamu's chances at a real job with local customs authority, but at the same time going from scammer directly to a position of public trust wouldn't have been good either.

Just to mention, I made a call for another baiter a few days ago to a scammer, and he had a job in a hotel and he mentioned that he already had a victim staying there that he was working, so a scammer is likely to use his job, if he can, to further his scamming.

In my job the rule was that if I was involved in any wrongdoing, even if unrelated to my work, I was pretty well guaranteed to be sacked, so why are scammers different ?

They are thieves.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:46 pm

capricio wrote:

Just curious more than anything else now... but would you say the same thing about American criminals out on parole? Would you interfere with their efforts to find honest work? Or just assume that they're going be repeat offenders anyways?

If I knew that the criminal was going to return to their life of crime and use the job to enhance their scamming, I absolutely would. I know that Adamu is actually fairly educated. At least, from what we have seen by his resume. He'll use that money and power to frther his scamming.

I have worked on a LOT of lads. This guy is just a scammer at heart. I would not do this to just ANY lad. There are some lads who I think might actually turn good. I don't know that I have met them, but I suspect some might try to better themselves. Not Adamu. He learned nothing. In fact, he made fun of the church he was stealing from, while rotting in Chad.

And, just for those interested, I do counsel prisoners. Murderers. Rapists. Child molesters. The cream of the crop. I have been doing so for many years. I can say with almost all certainty, that most will be back. I say that because I know it to be fact. Unless someone gets to the root of the problem (the scammers heart that is filled with shit and splinters) then they will never change.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

@ Gomer

With all due respect, your proof is a bit anecdotal. It does, however, illustrate that lads with honest jobs aren't above trying to supplement their income with scamming in their spare time.

Baiters have pretty much a free hand applying vigilante tactics, and sometimes relying on their instincts is probably better than waiting for a scam to play out. But nonetheless, if vigilante justice is going to be applied, shouldn't baiters at least hold themselves to the same standards of evidenciary proof that law enforcement would? Can we really just assume none of these lads wouldn't go straight, and everything they do is done to enhance their scamming?

I just don't like it when the baiters make sweeping generalizations in the same fashion as the huggers.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

I really dislike being called a vigilante.

Quote:

A vigilante is a person who ignores due process of law and enacts his own form of justice when they deem the response of the authorities to be insufficient.

I do not ignore due process.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:01 pm

capricio wrote:

With all due respect, your proof is a bit anecdotal.

Errr it was anecdotal because it was an anecdote or, as I have both the recording and a written transcript, evidence - so let's call it evidential.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:05 pm

What more proof do you want? Adamu still scams. I can provide that evidence. Adamu and his colleagues also routinely buy millions of email addresses for their scams. This costs money. Ergo, it is safe for me to assume that if he had even MORE money, he would buy even MORE leads.

We got in pretty close with ND and CZ with some other baits. I can assure you, these are not nice guys. They are very savvy and very successful.

And, the point of being a vigilante is that I DON'T have to go through the red tape of the law. Laughing

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:15 pm

@capricio

Quote:

shouldn't baiters at least hold themselves to the same standards of evidenciary proof that law enforcement would

In the U.S., bodies such as the A.C.L.U. and other corrupt law firms have used their talents to castrate law enforcement and the judicial system, favoring the criminal, all in the name of their paycheck. It has gone way past "fair trial" and "due process".

I tend to think that when the system fails, it is up to the citizens to right the ship, whether it be public works, education, or, in this instance, law enforcement. I believe that you cannot rely on your government to protect you. It has done a miserable job of it so far. This is just a small step in the right direction.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:42 pm

@capricio

It's a lovely idea about all baiters upholding the evideciary standards that LEO's do but quite frankly what more do we need?

Quote:

Calvary greetings Sir
I am Koffi Admula, solicitor to Jackson Brown who left $20 trillion in his will and has no living beneficiaries........

Hey, the sender is a scammer, he's not a solicitor, there is no money and the email has been cc'd to half the planet and his goat. What more evidence do you actually need?
Justice generally does 'fail' the victims of these scams. Those that do report them have little chance of recovering their money as the scammers (like us) operate from behind layers of anonymity. Even if the victim were to have the genuine contact details for the scammer, many of them are based in countries wher coruption and bribery are a way of life. They aren't punished if they dole out a few backhanders to the local constabulary.

On a more general note:
To say that these scammers are shunned in their societies is IMO incorrect, if you research the subject you will see that in many areas of Nigeria (disclaimer: not all Nigerians are scammers) the Lads are treated like local heroes, cheating silly foreigners and making money whilst not doing an honest days work.

The hate mails that were sent to jojo, YW and the prof were most telling and unfortunately not untypical of people who really don't have a clue about the subject and would rather respond with some knee-jerk reactionary bile aimed at the evil baiter and in defense of the poor innocent scammer.
Baiters on this forum have posed as children before to see a lads response and yes the lads will stoop that low, it makes sobering reading.

Fact: Not all victims are greedy, some think they have generally won a lottery, some are desperate, some are lonely and caught up in the lies of a love scammer. Only a percentage of scams are fake inheritence scams that rely on a vics greed.
Fact: People have died, sometimes through suicide. Do you think the lads care? Of course not, only that one source of income has dried up. Vics have also been murdered, they have flown to meet scammers, been kidnapped and then killed. Although meeting these people may be foolish did these people actually deserve to die?
Fact: A lad couldn't give a shit if you're black, white or orange and nor do baiters. The race card gets trotted out again and again by lads and lad-huggers alike. It's bollocks, just ask any love baiter, a high proportion of the vlads they screw with are white. Race is not an issue in baiting.
Fact: The lads are not forced into anything, they do it out of choice and, unlike vics, greed is their primary motivation. Sure we give them a tough time but honestly, if one of my lads was to die on his travels I wouldn't shed a tear. When you've been baiting a while and see the shher pain and misery these bastards cause then most agree that they get what they deserve.
Before newcomers to the eater start criticizing what us baiters do to lads then I suggest they read victims' stories, pop over to scamwarners and read over there too and if you still think that the lads are poor little misguided lambs then I'd suggest you find a different hobby.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:00 pm

The Calvary greeted you today too? My Calvary came in Jesus' name...

Quote:

Calvary greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

You guys are getting all pissed off, all I'm trying to say is:

While I'm sure you can all point out specific past examples of lads using their jobs to advance their scamming... taken on balance, a lad with a real job is probably doing less harm than a lad spending all day in the cafe. I'm not speaking specifically about Adamu or Gomer's lad, obviously there are and can be exceptions. But those exceptions shouldn't be used as an excuse to generalize all lads with jobs, and an excuse to disrupt lads from holding legitimate jobs.

Ima:

We can avoid the "V-word", but the definition holds true for what goes on here. The key word not being just "due process" but "due process of law"

Your "due process" is all done in your own mind, not any legal system. I'm not saying that vigilantism is inherently wrong, especially where law enforcement has utterly failed, but lets call a spade a spade. You can embrace the term like Jojo and Ralph, or just ignore it... but don't deny it.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:32 pm

^^Lads are generally very lazy and don't even want propper jobs. They can earn lots of money from sitting on their arses in a cyber cafe all day so why work for a living. Sorry mate but the simple fact is that any lad worth the name will exploit a real job for his scamming gains. Lads don't turn to the light side, even the ones that jojo sends around the planet.
You say

Quote:

obviously there are and can be exceptions

yes, most lads, 99.9% of them are the exception and it is ok to generalize about lads in this respect, most of them are career criminals.
I suggest you track down a copy of '419 Scam' by Charles Tive as it has some excellent insights into lad culture and mentality.

Oh, and I'm not a vigilante! I'm a renegade. Wink

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