Split from Radio show thread: Ethics of the Chad Bait

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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:19 pm

DirtMcGirt wrote:

The difference is, I have no illusions or delusions about myself.

*sigh* There's that super-ego again.

Really. You need to stamp down on that superiority complex before you can be taken seriously.

"I claim to know myself inside and out but am unable to grasp the simplest of concepts when presented to me in a logical manner".

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 9

DirtMcGirt wrote:

Quote:

,but I think the new guy is a bigger sadist than any of us ever could be.

That's a bold statement, but it's probably true. At least a bigger sadist than most of you, or than most of you are apparently willing to admit. The difference is, I have no illusions or delusions about myself.

I'm curious as to how you feel about the morality of "To Catch a Predator". They use underhanded techniques to get guys who would normally be stalking young kids. In your views I read this as morally inferior and not above some form of reproach.

Personally, I find it difficult not to empathize with everyone - including the scammers. Yet the empathy with the victims is tinged with more than just a little sadness and anger while the scammers also elicit scorn and self-righteousness.

I think that intentions matter a great deal. Not that the ends necessarily justify the means, but think of how many people are saved by the actions of the scammers. You can't save everyone from themselves, but what kind of people are we if we don't try?

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:23 pm

^^^

Great post.

*** BANNED *** Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 2021

@ Dirt.... don't you get it, you have walked into something you have absolutely no idea about, instead of having the sense to read up a bit before talking crap you just steamed in there hammer and tong.... it's a bit like me wandering into NASA and telling them how to fire their rocket thingy, you simply have no idea what you are talking about and you don't have the balls to put your hands up and admit it, i seriously hope that no-one close to you becomes a victim and turns to you for you for help, or maybe i do in a way, then maybe you will realise what a complete and utter numpty you have made yourself look.... no offense just my way of of expressing myself without Gucci long words.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:24 pm

Quote:

I have a clinical lack of empathy for people in general

...except scammers? Apparently?

Anyway - I wasn't in their heads at the time, but I always thought the funny part was what the scammer was SAYING and not the actual potential for him getting beat up.

It was even underlined in the interview - scammers lie ALL the time. You may think I'm using hyperbole here, but I really truly mean it. Most conversations I get from scammers are absolutely FULL of lies - where they went, how they live, their job, their NAMES.....everything is fake. And THAT'S funny.

For example, it's a common excuse for them to say that they have been in the hospital, or a family member died. But they are not telling the truth, and we have ways of proving it too. The POINT is that I would laugh at his description of his hospital visit because I know it DIDN'T HAPPEN or is wildly exaggerated.

Besides, don't say you've never laughed at something like this. Razz

Nice nativity Jojo. It's heavenly.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:26 pm

^^^

You're embarassing me. Embarassed

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:30 pm

bombardier wrote:

it's a bit like me wandering into NASA and telling them how to fire their rocket thingy

"Rocket thingy"? Rocket thingy FFS. Is that your best technical description?

Aren't you in charge of the guns and missiles that defend our glorious nation? How the feck am I going to sleep safe in my bed tonight knowing that I'm being protected by British Army artillery people who refer to NASA hardware as "rocket thingys"?

Just keep those "bangy thingys" nice and polished and don't go playing around with the bit that make them go "BOOM!!!".

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

Edrondol wrote:

I'm curious as to how you feel about the morality of "To Catch a Predator". They use underhanded techniques to get guys who would normally be stalking young kids. In your views I read this as morally inferior and not above some form of reproach.

Well, there actions of TCAP people aren't the same as the predator's themselves. The predator's try and seduce children and rape children. The TCAP pose as children.

You can say" Okay, the baiters just pose as victims" . And I'm sure many if not most of the baits are just like that, baiter's posing as victims to waste the scammer's time. But the Adamu "bait" wasn't that, it was a con with the purpose of making them suffer. It would be more akin to tricking a child molester into coming to your house, then raping them with a broom handle.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:32 pm

Quote:

How the feck am I going to sleep safe in my bed tonight knowing that I'm being protected by British Army artillery people who refer to NASA hardware as "rocket thingys"?

Carefully?

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

Peanut wrote:

...except scammers? Apparently?

Once again, I'm not a lad hugger. I don't care if they get hurt, I have no sympathy for them, if they so stupid and greedy to put themselves in harms way in Chad, then LOL at them. You guys want to con the con men in hilarious ways, more power too you, I'll continue to laugh. But I'll also continue to laugh at the facade of moral superiority the baiter's erect to justify their actions.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:37 pm

So, what's the point of the conversation then?

Honestly, if you think it's funny, why not just laugh? Why do you have point out our supposed "moral superiority"? And what relevance does it have anyway?

Why not sign up and bait? You seem like a grade A dick, you might be good at it.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:39 pm

DirtMcGirt wrote:

Well, there actions of TCAP people aren't the same as the predator's themselves. The predator's try and seduce children and rape children. The TCAP pose as children.

And baiters don't try to steal money from innocent victims and destroy their lives. So our actions aren't the same as the scammers.
The Chad baiters were acting as victims. They were pretending to be a charitable church. There's no difference comparison-wise between them and the TCAP people who pose as children.

Quote:

It would be more akin to tricking a child molester into coming to your house, then raping them with a broom handle.

Only in your world. The punishment the Chad lads got was relative. Like somebody said earlier, if they had gone to jail they would have suffered far worse.
And they probably would have got raped by a broom handle for real.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:41 pm

Baiter is approached by scammer for fraudulent money offer (illegal, btw)

Baiter says no - offers a chance to join a fake church/school/charity

Scammer, fully intending to rip off said church/school/charity, follows instructions.

Baiter disappears.

...this makes the baiter and the scammer moral equals?

EDIT: I think I'll just mean this rhetorically, because certainly this conversation doesn't need more poking with a sharp stick..

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

TCAP works domestically in the US, primarily. We actually have law enforcement and consequences here.

Advance fee fraud thrives where there is virtually no law enforcement, so the 419baiter does not enjoy that "luxury" of working with an actual law enforcement agency. Anything that that happens to a lad in west Africa that could be construed as punitive is probably the only punishment he'll ever see. The core issue, I beleive, is still the virtues and pitfalls of vigilantism, although the word is rarely mentioned here.

Anyways, I think TCAP and 419eater are apples and oranges, so to speak.

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

bombardier wrote:

i seriously hope that no-one close to you becomes a victim and turns to you for you for help, or maybe i do in a way, then maybe you will realise what a complete and utter numpty you have made yourself look....

There is a difference between someone who is close to me coming for help and is victimized, and my lack of empathy for people I don't know and have no connection to. My friends and family I care intensely about, and I would ( and have) act to protect and avenge them. But when I have avenged a love one, I was not such a fool as to confuse vengeance with justice.

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 9

DirtMcGirt wrote:

Edrondol wrote:

I'm curious as to how you feel about the morality of "To Catch a Predator". They use underhanded techniques to get guys who would normally be stalking young kids. In your views I read this as morally inferior and not above some form of reproach.

Well, there actions of TCAP people aren't the same as the predator's themselves. The predator's try and seduce children and rape children. The TCAP pose as children.

You can say" Okay, the baiters just pose as victims" . And I'm sure many if not most of the baits are just like that, baiter's posing as victims to waste the scammer's time. But the Adamu "bait" wasn't that, it was a con with the purpose of making them suffer. It would be more akin to tricking a child molester into coming to your house, then raping them with a broom handle.

But see, here's where the analogy totally breaks down. Please bear with me as I promise that this is going somewhere.

When TCAP does their thing they are lying and posing as underage kids to lure people into their own personal ruin, both professionally and personally. I admit that this is all entirely their own doing, but it's the greed of the thing (greed is not just about money) that gets them into trouble. They blind themselves to the possible negative impact that this could have and - with their fingers in their ears singing LALALALA loudly - walk right into the trap.

The modus operandi between TCAP and 419Eaters is largely the same. They take the inherent evil of the individual and use it against them. So the divergence of the two situations is this: TCAP arrests and prosecutes offenders while scammers get away 99 out of 100 times.

Sure, eaters are wasting time & some small amounts of money of the scammers, but they have little investiture of their own. Predators lose respect, freedom and family but these scammers have no coin to pay the ferryman!

In short, yes, they may be in danger at times, but they go willingly if not foolishly. It is they who put their lives on the line for the sake of money.

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

Quote:

And baiters don't try to steal money from innocent victims and destroy their lives. So our actions aren't the same as the scammers.

No, in the Adamu bait, they tried to get the scammer hurt or killed. You're absolutely right that those actions aren't the same. One is a crime against property, the other isn't.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:48 pm

Beef Vindaloo recipe

Quote:

* 1 kg beef chuck steak (2lb)
* 3 tablespoons coriander
* 1 tablespoon cumin
* 6 cloves
* 5 cm cinnamon sticks (2 inch)
* 1 1/2 teaspoons black peppercorns
* 2 teaspoons fenugreek seeds
* 1 teaspoon fennel seed
* 10 small green or red chilies,
* 8 garlic cloves
* 1 large onion
* 2 1/2 cm piece fresh ginger (1 inch)
* 1/4 cup white vinegar
* 3 tablespoons ghee (or a bit of oil)
* 2 bay leaves
* 2 cups beef stock
* salt, to taste
* potatoes - 750 g- peeled and chopped

Directions

1
Trim meat and cut into 5cm (2 inch) cubes. Set aside,.

2
Grind spices from coriander to fennel to a very fine powder.

3
Grind chillies with garlic, onion and ginger (I put in the blender with the vinegar).

4
Mix spice powder with vinegar and rub well into the meat. Pour on the onion paste and leave meat to marinate for 2 hours (or overnight).

5
Heat ghee, or oil, and fry meat until very deeply coloured.

6
Add bay leaves and stock and bring to the boil, then simmer until meat is nearly done.

7
Add the potatoes and cook for another 20 minutes.
8
Season to taste with salt, if you are using it, and leave overnight if time (or family "pickers") permits.

OK guys, you bring the beer round on friday evening. You know with this recipe you are going to need lots of it!!

PS Leave your guns, bullwhips and sadistic tendencies in the porch!

PPS- looks like top asshat YW is sitting this one out ( must be practising his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech!)

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

jojobean wrote:

So, what's the point of the conversation then?

.

Point? Does it need a point? I just think the moral issue it's interesting, is all.

*** BANNED *** Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 2021

Quote:

No, in the Adamu bait, they tried to get the scammer hurt or killed.

If they did or didn't so what? the lad is responsible for his own actions therefore he would be responsible if he happened to get slotted in the process. Far more victims have lost their lives to 419 than any scumbags that have been baited here

Edit: Nice recipe MM, will try it tomorrow night Smile

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 9

music man wrote:

Beef Vindaloo recipe

Quote:

*snip recipe*

OK guys, you bring the beer round on friday evening. You know with this recipe you are going to need lots of it!!

PS Leave your guns, bullwhips and sadistic tendencies in the porch!

PPS- looks like top asshat YW is sitting this one out ( must be practising his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech!)

Man I love a good vindaloo. Smile

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:52 pm

DirtMcGirt wrote:

Quote:

And baiters don't try to steal money from innocent victims and destroy their lives. So our actions aren't the same as the scammers.

No, in the Adamu bait, they tried to get the scammer hurt or killed. You're absolutely right that those actions aren't the same. One is a crime against property, the other isn't.

I think you have totally misunderstood. The baiters tried to make him see how 100 % risky his scammiboi's life was.

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

Niagara, O roar again! wrote:

I think you have totally misunderstood. The baiters tried to make him see how 100 % risky his scammiboi's life was.

Ah, so the note in arabic was altruistic and benevolent. I understand now, thanks for clearing that up.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

Bombardier,

Devil's advocate here, but they did try to send other people to their homes, etc, while they were away. In my own mind at least, there's a difference between actions like these and luring lads to dangerous places that anyone should know will be dangerous.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Quote:

One is a crime against property, the other isn't.

Did you see Lotta's or ScamPatroller's posts with links to the victim's stories?

Here's another one: http://www.scamwarners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=860

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