This is sad, really

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Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:13 am

^^^ I get what you're saying. While stealing is wrong, yes, sometimes I feel worse for some victims than others. I started to feel bad for my newest addition to T.W.A.T. today but then I realized he had a better education than many of his peers and he still choose to be a scammer.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:15 am

AEarhart51 wrote:

The fact that many people are willing victims (through greed or stupidity or both) of these scammers doesn't excuse the scammers' amoral and criminal behavior.

So if I think I have found a proper job, pay in a cheque and see the proceeds in my bank account and send 90% on, which is it, greedy or stupid? If I fall for someone from a dating site whom I believe to be in love with me and I help them out financially, which is it, greedy or stupid? And if I send money to what I believe to be a charity for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, which is it, greedy or stupid? Surprised

Blanket statements about victims don't work, I find. Smile

AEarhart51 wrote:

They're religious and speak of God? Well, so are all the evangelists who deceive and manipulate people least able to afford being conned. link removed

We have a "no religion or politics" rule here - please abide by it.

Steam, the trouble with making calls about from whom it's less bad to steal is that you start to judge their circumstances when you may not really know how they got there. One person may be poor because they had loads and squandered it, and another may be rich because they worked hard all their life. Who do you pick then? Smile

I prefer focus on the fact that whatever the victim of crime's circumstances, they will almost certainly feel angry and/or vulnerable, and deserve support.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:48 pm

I think the major points have been made, but I thought I'd share this dialog from a post I made a few weeks ago. I was posing as a college student doing research on scammers. This is from the middle of a discussion with one lad. He answered my general, non-accusatory questions with questions of his own. His point of view is a fairly typical representation of the kind of BS backfill a lot of lads seem to use to justify what they do (his words are in black, mine are in blue):

Quote:

How do you feel when the whites were using we Africans for slave trades?

That was wrong. It was ended before my parents or grandparents were born. Many, or most of the people who descended from slaves live here, and fall for these scams. Are you scamming the great grandchildren of the slave keepers, or the great grand children of the slaves? Do you do try only to scam white people? How do you find out?

How do you feel when upon how your country is developed but still our selfish rulers are looting our finances for real and your people will be accepting it while the poor masses here cannot afford to eat nor train their children in school?

That is also wrong. Ordinary citizens in most countries are not able to control their government officials, any more than you are yours.

How do you feel accepting money you did not work for?

Can you explain your question better? What money do I receive without working?

All this happens, upon how Africa is poor? Your people are wicked?
They deserve what we are doing them.

Isn't it true that there are wicked people in every society? How can you know who is wicked and who is not. What if one of your victims is is of African decent? Or what happens if one of your victims lives in Africa now? How do you know where your emails go?

Does scamming people help your country? Or is the damage to the reputation of the honest, hardworking African people being sold just as the slaves were?

Rather than answer my follow-up questions, he told me a story about how his friend scammed someone for two million dollars. He claimed the scam worked because the victim had previously stolen 12 million from the Nigerian government.

He was unable, or unwilling to counter any of my points. In my opinion, the rationalizations he offered are largely racist, and as such, they can not be defended with reason or logic. They are also based on shreds of misinterpreted or over-simplified facts. His mindset reminds me of the kinds of arguments terrorists use to justify harming innocent people to forward their agendas. One could argue that terrorists have a moral leg up on scammers since, however misguided, their agenda is not to simply line their own pockets.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:55 pm

Luckey, good post.

I do find it interesting that in general, the scammers are more racist than most Americans or Europeans I know. To me this nullifies the "racist" complaint people have against scambaiters. There are lads, vlads, and Filipinos. Americans would scam if they weren't afraid of actually getting punished by the government.

I tried to get this guy to admit that he had lied to me, even in the course of his humble pity-party conversation, but he just couldn't. After I point blank asked him if he was ashamed, he made an excuse and said he needed to go to bed. It was about 6:00am local time there, so that was obviously an excuse...either that or he was some new nocturnal breed of human.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:09 pm

Steam wrote:

I'm not going to be quite so belligerent from now on, unless they deserve it. Twisted Evil

Not understanding... can't comprehend.

I respect no person or group of people raised with the ethical thoughts that stealing from others is okay. That's not being a bigot or intolerant, it's being right. Just because their mentality is that way doesn't make it acceptable.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:56 pm

Well...I'm not going to immediately start being belligerent and insulting them, until they start being jerks or overly idiotic.

All these guys are morally corrupt. We all agree on that. They do all deserve to get cussed out/led on/lied to/time wasted/etc, but I'm going to let them transgress against me before I really lay it on them.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:14 pm

^^Sounds like a good plan. Everyone here should use their own moral compass to guide their baiting efforts.

While you are busy doing that, I will be trying to get them to shave their heads with a cheese grater while drinking gasoline and running with scissors, regardless of what they say or do to me personally. Wink

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:37 pm

Quote:

I will be trying to get them to shave their heads with a cheese grater

Give me a photo. Twisted Evil

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:21 pm

Steam wrote:

Americans would scam if they weren't afraid of actually getting punished by the government.

Umm, Steam, what kind of comment is this? Evil or Very Mad

There are Americans who scam anyway. HOWEVER, not ALL Americans would scam out of fear of the government. Not ALL Nigerians scam. Not ALL Filipinos scam (I have met some very nice Filipinos over the years). Not ALL Russians scam.

Generalizations are dangerous and a form of prejudice. The scammers we work with are that, they are scammers. I don't think anyone cares what nationality they are. It is their behaviour that gets our attention. It is the damage that they do do victims that fuels our efforts.

As Luckey said, bait the way you are comfortable with. Most baiters (and all successful baiters) do not cuss out/curse at the scammers they work with. When we do discuss them "here" the language gets quite colorful at times. That doesn't mean we talk TO them that way. If we did, they would just end the communication.

Please read some in the Published Baits forum, and please don't generalize any Culture, Ethnicity or Nationality. It isn't nice.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:23 pm

^^ Agreed. Let's try to work on a case by case basis here.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:37 pm

Generalizations are very dangerous. They feed fear and lies and result in prejudice which can come to an even greater issue: genocide.

Human beings, regardless of nationality, are capable of scamming. Just like human beings, regardless of nationality, are capable of committing crimes and on the flipside being constructive members of society. This is called human nature, and it has very little to do with nationality, creed, age, sex.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:39 pm

As a baiter, now that I know the tricks of the trade, I really feel that I could easily steal from vics if I wanted to. I think I would be quite good at it too. The government plays no role in my choice to earn an honest living.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:22 pm

I was expressly NOT making a generalization based on race, culture, or ethnicity. I don't see how my statement was misconstrued here.

My exact point was that it doesn't matter what culture they come from. But there is a very real reason why 90% of all email scammers come from Russia or Nigeria...the laws and enforcement regarding that crime are very lax. Here, in the US, they're not.

Please reread my comment. I wasn't attacking anyone. If anything, I was criticizing fellow Americans, who would e-scam if they could.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:27 pm

No big deal, it's just that you are saying that fellow Americans would scam. That was the problem that people had with the statement. Sure, some Americas would scam, because some people are just rotten. However, there are many (most) that wouldn't.

Sometimes it is very hard to get across what you mean without the luxury of tone and such. Trust me, I have stuck my foot in my mouth a number of times.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:32 pm

^^That was my point, and jojoobean made it too. I do not scam our of fear of the government. I don't scam because it is not right! I know hundreds of people who would not scam if it weren't regulated either.

Criminal behaviour occurs regardless of the laws. Infact in some people's minds, it is the laws that MAKE their behaviours illegal.

Lets not make this a political or government hating thread.

If I misunderstood the statement I quoted from your post, I apologize. I stand by my statements about generalizations. Cool

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:49 pm

jojobean wrote:

Sometimes it is very hard to get across what you mean without the luxury of tone and such. Trust me, I have stuck my foot in my mouth a number of times.

Thanks! I've been sticking my foot in my mouth a number of times in this thread.

I am sure, that of the millions of Nigerians and Russians, only a small percentage of them scam. Yet I'm pretty sure that a close percentage of Americans are probably involved in some criminal activity of some kind. I'm not trying to lessen the fact that crime in Russia is particularly bad, or to accuse Americans in general of being crooks.

I guess I need to really close my mouth. That's the problem with the world wide web...if we could only be face to face we'd probably all agree!

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:32 pm

This is been a awsome thread, lots of view point and thoughts. I need to add my .02, a am very much a Christian, very active in my church and commuity, but the is a point that even a person who pratises the teaching of his lord and savior Jesus Christ, where he have to say enought is enought.
there is something called "rightous indenation" I know its not spelled right. But there is a time when a person of peace need to arm him self, even if its with a keyboard.
we are all there to help our fellow man, all of us here it by proteching the unprotected from scum. ethicly we are in the right as it sead in the bible " an eye for an eye. we are here and what we do is because the need of the many (the victims) out weight the needs of the few (the lads),
I feel and show NO remorse for what I do, I did not start the scamming the first bullet was fired be the scammer, I am here to put my body up as a sheild metaphoicly speaking, takeing the shot instead of some poor soul.
and I have talked to my pastor of my church and told him all about scambating and why I do it. and he comfirms my feeling that what I/we do is right and is in the eye of the lord is justafyed. as a shepard I am tending to the flock keeping the wolves at bay.

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:08 am

Quote:

While you are busy doing that, I will be trying to get them to shave their heads with a cheese grater while drinking gasoline and running with scissors, regardless of what they say or do to me personally

Why waste perfectly good petrol / gasoline unless you are going to have them set fire to themselves, there is a worldwide fuel shortage at the moment and wasting it in that fashion would be wrong and unethical Wink

Not quite a Newb Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 50

Quote:

So if I think I have found a proper job, pay in a cheque and see the proceeds in my bank account and send 90% on, which is it, greedy or stupid? If I fall for someone from a dating site whom I believe to be in love with me and I help them out financially, which is it, greedy or stupid? And if I send money to what I believe to be a charity for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, which is it, greedy or stupid?

I fail to see the comparison. In the above examples you mention, you are sending money to help out. Of course there is no "greed" involved in that. How could there be, when you are promised nothing in return? It might be less than prudent to send money to unknown charitable organizations without checking them out first, or to send money to someone on a dating site BUT, the outlay there is usually limited, since most people wouldn't send the last dime they have while getting nothing in return..

Sending money to to anonymous names in email spam for the express purpose of receiving riches beyond your wildest dreams in return is a whole other ball of wax. Lots of people will turn off their common sense when they smell money...lots and lots of money.

As for "discussing religion" - I was not discussing that at all, but talking about people who commit mass fraud every day. Fraud is fraud and the positions of the people committing it - evangelist or Ebay seller - is not the issue.

And BTW, I never said every single person who is scammed is stupid and greedy. I said "MANY", and I stand by that.

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:36 pm

AEarhart51 wrote:

I fail to see the comparison. In the above examples you mention, you are sending money to help out. Of course there is no "greed" involved in that. How could there be, when you are promised nothing in return?

Some charity scams promise nothing in return, some promise a commission for setting up a trust. I have personally had contact with victims of scams like these who lose tons of money, with no promise of return. I knew a woman who had been sending money to a "charity" for years. She didn't think it was much, but when we figured it what she had sent over the years, it was a huge amount of money. She wasn't stupid, just inexperienced with the internet.

With job scams people believe they have found a job. They deposit checks that are fake, deposit them and send 90% or so of to their "employer". By the time the thing comes tumbling down, they are thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and they are in a heap of legal trouble as well. Sometimes they will be approached again by the same scammers pretending to be law enforcement and they get scammed again. Stupid is a harsh term. Many of the people who fall for these scams are desperate for a job. Maybe undereducated, but not stupid.

Romance scams are brutal too. People sincerely fall in love and believe they are sending money to help their future spouse, or to help them get a visa etc. to come to where they live. These people routinely get bled dry.

With lottery scams, people genuinely believe they have won a pile of money. Maybe that's greed, but is it wrong to want to win a lottery?

Even inheritance scams can be highly targeted, where lads research family names. Is a person greedy if they want to claim what they believe is a legitimate inheritance?

Quote:

And BTW, I never said every single person who is scammed is stupid and greedy. I said "MANY", and I stand by that.

Many people probably are.

Many are not.

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:57 pm

AEarhart51 wrote:

I fail to see the comparison.

I'm not surprised. I was not drawing a comparison. I was talking about the other types of victims, the ones that don't fit the aspersions in your post. You made your point, and I filled in the gaps so that the thread as a whole presented a more complete picture. We have victims coming here looking for advice and support, and I don't see any reason why "many" of them should be categorised as stupid or greedy without further comment or some kind of rebuttal. And even if a victim has been stupid or greedy or both, I think they deserve a little compassion. Besides which, telling someone they have been stupid is not an effective way of getting them to learn from a mistake, in my experience.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

Quote:

And even if a victim has been stupid or greedy or both, I think they deserve a little compassion.

I'll second that.

Just a general comment, but I see the 'many people scammed are just greedy/stupid' thoughts in these threads all the time. It doesn't make what happened to them any less of a crime than a prostitute being raped or victimized.

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:41 pm

AEarhart51 wrote:

The fact that many people are willing victims (through greed or stupidity or both)

The only "willing" victims that I have ever seen are the ones that know that the check or money order is fake, and either attempt to cash it or succeed in cashing it hoping that they won't be caught.

Those are co-conspirators, not victims, and are driven by greed.

Victims are often in need of money, and are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to someone that promises to help them. Yes, some victims are hard-headed. Like the person that plays the slot machine and loses but keeps feeding the machine hoping that the next pull of the handle will be the big jackpot, many victims have the same hope for the millions they are promised. The words gullible and trusting come into play here, but to call scam victims stupid and greedy is hard-hearted.

These people need compassion, not contempt.

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:19 am

mewing_ghecko wrote:

Quote:

4. Scammers do not contribute to the welfare of their own economy and environment.

this one i would like to comment on. Scammers do contribute to their economy.

I see what you're saying, but I see a different scenario...

In terms of social responsibility I don't imagine many scammers really can claim to be Robin Hood characters driving around in BMW's through streets of hungry innocent people. Their economic contribution is a by-product of consumption at best, and I'm sure their lax moral compasses mean they'd steal and extort what they consume given even a fraction of a chance. Robin Hood lived more or less as his local community lived (so the legend goes), giving away his takings as opposed to reluctant dickswinging power play spending.

After all, how much of a scammer's gains do you reckon they declare for tax purposes? Wink

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:48 am

Steam wrote:

I'm not going to be quite so belligerent from now on, unless they deserve it. Twisted Evil

This is one of the lines that stirred up the hornet's nest I think, and they all deserve it mate, as you know. He nearly had you there.