Sending Out ASEM's

By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics and access other forums reserved for members. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join our community today by clicking here.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:14 pm

Hi Folks!

We run the Sisters Of Spam website in Scotland www.sistersofspam.co.uk Our main aim is to close down as many scammers REPLY email accounts as possible to reduce the risk of people becoming victims to the scammers. At the moment we are listing and reporting appx 300-400 REPLY email accounts each week for closure to the relative ISP's.

However, yesterday we reported one scam email which unknowingly, turned out to be an ASEM (accidentally sent email) from a member of this forum who was sending out emails to bait.

To ensure this doesn't happen again (as we have no real way of checking which emails are scams and which are baiters emails), if you can send a private message to us on the forum confirming the email address you will be using for ASEM's, we'll ensure that it's not reported nor included in our site database.

If anyone can come up with a better way of working this, PLEASE let us know! Sending a private message on the forum isn't ideal - however, it's the best method we could come up with for the moment to prevent any more ASEM's being reported in error.

Our sincere apologies to the forum member concerned Sad

Mother Superior Senga
The Sisters Of Spam
"Fighting The Good Fight Against Spammers & Scammers"
www.sistersofspam.co.uk

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:34 pm

Welcome

Please don't get me wrong here. I've seen your site and I appreciate your ideals and it's great to have any extra scam warning sites, but - please, please, please don't close email addresses unless they are paid for. There are several reasons for this.
1) It takes a couple of seconds for a scammer to open a new account and continue where he left off.
2) If a potential victim is searching for a link to verify or condemn his scammer, if it's a new email it won't be listed. The more hits an email address gets, the more chance there is of someone finding it connected to a scam.
3) If someone has a bait in progress it can stop it in mid bait.
4) Closing the account is unlikely to stop the scammer as the details of any potential victims will usually be forwarded to a different email address.

Personally, reason 2 is the main reason as far as I'm concerned. Keep up the good work though - hopefully without the email address killing. Smile

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:40 pm

Seconded.

Amen!

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:41 pm

Welcome to Eater.

Your efforts are applaudable - BUT...the scammers, once they find the addresses no longer work, only create new ones. This makes our work a lot harder, and is counter productive to what we do - ie, frustrate the scammers.

I have had contact with a couple of victims, quite accidentally, who are spreading the word through their respective communities about particular scammers, and their modalities (for want of a better word). These victims are not from English speaking backgrounds and local education is proving to be having some success! IF the scammers move on to different addresses (& sure, they sometimes do, anyway), it makes our efforts in educating rather pointless!!

Education of communities as to what/how these scammers are doing is probably more advantageous to the community than merely causing the scammer some temporary discomfort!

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:50 pm

Thanks for the replies!

I'll try to clarify a couple of things:

1. We do close down the REPLY accounts and as quickly as possible - however these are only for the latest scams and wouldn't normally affect any ongoing baits you have on the go. As I'm sure you've noticed, the vast majority of scammers use a reply account in their emails to catch victims, however, after that, they then usually respond from a different account (a main account) which isn't quoted on their emails.

2. We realise that the database aspect isn't ideal - however, most scammers use the same emails (and same sending names) again and again and if you do a quick search using any of the old favourites, you'll see identical emails appearing in the search results - not ideal I agree - but it's helpful to some people.

We've had quite a lot of positive feedback from people who have used the database successfully. Remember everyone's aim is to stop as many scammers as possible.

Mother Superior Senga
"Fighting The Good Fight Against Spammers & Scammers"
www.sistersofspam.co.uk

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:00 pm

I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree then. If the scammers are replying from a different email address, there's not much point in closing the original address. It's using up valuable time that could be spent warning/educating people, compiling databases of scams etc, and really, closing an email address does very little damage, if any, to the scammer at all.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:12 pm

Slightly to one side of this - if you visit our 'sister' site (www.scamwarners.com), you will find there are many examples of scams & the 'reply to' email addresses.

Any victim - real or potential - who does a 'Google' search for an address, often finds it refers them to scamwarners or other warning sites. There, they are informed of the scam in greater depth.

Closing down the reply-to addresses can cause some of the posts and advisories at these warning sites to be redundant and thus not prevent potential victims from being scammed.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:13 pm

Sisters Of Spam wrote:

We've had quite a lot of positive feedback from people who have used the database successfully. Remember everyone's aim is to stop as many scammers as possible.

I also applaud your efforts; however, simply getting the reply email address of a scammer shut down will not stop the scammer. If it were that simple, there wouldn't be any scammers left. Smile

Others have already pointed out that getting any scammer email address shut down is pointless because they just open a new one. Doing so can also hinder any law enforcement investigation that might be taking place as there might be evidence in that scammers email box that LE needs. If you get the email address shut down, that potential evidence is lost.

I hope that you will give this more thought. If you want to stop scammers, destroying what could possibly used against them isn't the way to go. Baiters help with many LE investigations, and even reply addresses have info that could be used. LE can't arrest scammers if they no longer have anything to go on.

Please consider the consequences. Very Happy

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:16 pm

By closing down the address on the new email it stops (or at least helps) potential new victims from being scammed.

Remember that we only deal with a very small proportion of the scam emails that are sent out every day so in reality, the chances of us closing down an account a baiter has replied to is very small.

Another interesting point is that there are lots of people doing the same thing as us (obviously without the website and database option) and reporting scam emails off their own back. We've been contacted by many people over the past few months who explained to us how they were doing it too.

Finally, remember at the end of the day, we're all "singing from the same hymn sheet" (no pun intended!) and everyone's prime aim is to reduce the amount of people being scammed by these fraudsters.

Mother Superior Senga
"Fighting The Good Fight Against Scammers & Spammers"
www.sistersofspam.co.uk

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:20 pm

Sisters Of Spam wrote:

1. We do close down the REPLY accounts and as quickly as possible - however these are only for the latest scams and wouldn't normally affect any ongoing baits you have on the go.

And how do you know that?

bjb hit the nail right on the head...

Quote:

...It takes a couple of seconds for a scammer to open a new account and continue where he left off.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:29 pm

Closing the account that is being baited is the least of the worries. Unfortunately, closing accounts does virtually nothing to stop a scam or potential victims. You also have to bear in mind that the scammers will have a stock list of 'victim' email addresses to write to, so sending out another load of emails from a different address is no problem for them at all. The only real way to prevent scams is to reach and educate the victims themselves.
Closing accounts is as effective as taking away their postage stamps - they'll just go and get more.
I'm not trying to denigrate what you are trying to do, I just think there are more effective, less damaging ways of doing it.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:33 pm

Mod edit - unnecessary full quote of earlier post removed, no need to quote it, we can see it, it's just up there ^^^ - SP

Hi

In the majority of cases the scammer uses a different email address (when a scam is up and running) to the email address on the original email. The main address (that they use for ongoing scams) is nearly always different (nine times out of ten) to the one's on the emails.

Check back through your own baits and you'll see what I mean.

The reply addresses quoted on the emails eventually get closed when they are reported (and not just by us) to the relative ISP's so there's a much better chance of a scammer seeing a scam through using a different account.

Mother Superior Senga
"Fighting The Good Fight Against Scammers & Spammers"
www.sistersofspam.co.uk

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Welcome here, Sisters.
I think you are referring to shutting down their "bombing" accounts, and not the reply to account?

The problem with shutting those down is that somtimes a victim seeing that the email account has been used to send this script to many many people is what helps convince them it's a scam.

I applaud anyone who spends their time fighting internet scam. I just think that spending a lot of time shutting down the email accounts isn't the best way to use your time and resources.

As Benjamin Bunny mentioned, educating people is the most effective way. The methods we use to do that are hindered by the scammer's accounts being shut down.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:42 pm

Mod edit - unnecessary full quote of earlier post removed, no need to quote it, we can see it, it's just up there ^^^ - SP

Hi

Closing down the sending account does in fact reduce (at least a little) the chance of someone being scammed. It stops more potential victims from reaching the scammer via that particular email.

Agreed, the scammer will just send out another email using an email extractor, however all we can do is to repeat the process. It certainly isn't any type of a magical fix to the problem but it does help somewhat. It also causes more work for the scammers - something that I think we can all agree with.

As you say, education is the most important factor here - the more people that are educated about email scams the better.

Mother Superior Senga
"Fighting The Good Fight Against Spammers & Scammers"
www.sistersofspam.co.uk

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:47 pm

Mod edit - unnecessary full quote of earlier post removed, no need to quote it, we can see it, it's just up there ^^^ - SP

Hi

We don't report the sending accounts - it's the reply accounts we list and report for closure. They are the most important to be closed down quickly as closing them down can stop a potential victim from replying to the scam email.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:52 pm

Quote:

In the majority of cases the scammer uses a different email address (when a scam is up and running) to the email address on the original email. The main address (that they use for ongoing scams) is nearly always different (nine times out of ten) to the one's on the emails.

If that is the case (and it is) where is the logic in closing the original accounts? If your argument is that the potential victim won't reply as the account's been closed, I'm afraid that you're forgetting that the scammer has a list of email addresses and will just write to them from a different address, and that is IF you've closed the account before the response has been received.
Sorry - it's just not effective.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:58 pm

Sisters Of Spam wrote:

Closing down the sending account does in fact reduce (at least a little) the chance of someone being scammed. ...

I assume you are on about the lads seeding account where they send out bulk emails seeding for victims? Lads view these accounts as disposable. It has already served its purpose, so losing it is no big deal.

If you are talking about their scamming accounts then my previous post (along with what bjb posted) still stands and you probably won't find any dissenters to that philosophy on this forum.

[Edited for spelling]

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Hello,
My confusion was from the fact that you're saying you're not closing the accounts that actually do their scams from, but the reply to account IS the one they often scam from.
As was previously mentioned, shutting those down eliminates incriminating evidence, if law enforcement were ever involved.

I'm curious how you know you're only shutting down new accounts. If you're going by when a scammer bombs a script, I have often seen scammers re-using their accounts, sending new scripts from one they have used for months. My baiting characters receive them quite often.
Additionally, some scammers use catcher accounts to send scripts and reply from/scam from.

Like Benjamin Bunny mentioned, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:06 pm

Mod edit - unnecessary full quote of earlier post removed, no need to quote it, we can see it, it's just up there ^^^ - SP

Hi

It's effective to an extent - not completely, obviously - but it does go somewhere to hopefully stopping someone being scammed.

It does cause a little more work for the scammers and uses up their time.

Remember that there is no magical fix to the scenario to stop people receiving the emails. The scammers will keep sending emails out and people will sadly continue to be duped.

However, by getting reply-to addresses closed down quickly, it does reduce the chances of someone being scammed by that email - that day. I agree, the scammer will sent out a fresh batch again, but even if the process has saved one person from being scammed, then it's worthwhile.

As I said previously, the only real way to solve the problem is by Education. However, until that happens, it's important to try to protect as many prospective victims as possible. Reporting doesn't solve the problem - but it does help - albeit a little.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Mod edit - unnecessary full quote of earlier post removed, no need to quote it, we can see it, it's just up there ^^^ - SP

Hi

The Reply to account found on the original email that the scammer has sent out is usually different from the one that they continue their scams from. In all the examples I've found, the vast majority of scammers use a different main account to the reply-to address found on the original email.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:29 pm

I don't mean to pile on here, but just yesterday one of my scammers accounts came back to me dead. I put all his correspondence in my 'trash' folder thinking he was lost. When I signed on this morning, there he was in my inbox again with a new address picking up right where we had left off. I'm new at this but IMHO killing the accounts won't stop them in the least.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Quote:

The Reply to account found on the original email that the scammer has sent out is usually different from the one that they continue their scams from.

I disagree. Most bomb from one account, and correspond from a second account (the reply to account). They use other accounts as supporting characters: barristers/bankers, etc.

As I previously mentioned, we'll have to agree to disagree; I am neither willing to concede the point nor argue.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:37 pm

Mod edit - unnecessary full quote of that ^^^ post removed, no need to quote it, we can see it, it's just there ^^^ - SP

Hi

I agree with you, they bomb from one account which is quickly closed down by the large spam organisations, they also have their reply account which we list for closure, but it's their other main account that they continue to use for continuing their ongoing scams that are already in progress.

Sorry - maybe I didn't make myself clear about that.

At the end of the day, as you say, we'll agree to disagree. However, the most important thing is that we're all making it harder for scammers and hopefully reducing the amount of victims falling for the scams - that way we're all working for the same cause. Very Happy

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:53 pm

Sisters Of Spam wrote:

By closing down the address on the new email it stops (or at least helps) potential new victims from being scammed.

Again, I beg to differ. Scammers forward their lists of victims and potential victims to their other email addresses which are usually many. They also put second addresses in scam emails for the intended victim to reply to. They open new accounts faster than you can get them shut down.

It is commendable what you are attempting to do which is save people from getting scammed; however, you are refusing to see that your efforts are futile.

We bait these lowlifes, and we know inside out how they operate. We see their actions on a daily basis. We are inside their heads, and we know what they do, and how they do it. To try to convince us that killing a reply address, or any scammer email address for that matter is like going to medical school for a month and then trying to tell the fully licensed physician that had 12 years of school and has been practicing medicine for 20 years how medicine works.

With all due respect, arguing this matter is not going to change the fact that shutting down email addresses is not going to hinder, slow down, or stop scammers in the least. We can argue this until the cows come home, but hard cold facts are just that - facts. They don't change. This is one of those hard, cold facts.

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:09 pm

Mod edit - unnecessary full quote of that ^^^ post removed, no need to quote it, we can see it, it's just there ^^^ - SP

Hi - Thanks for your comment.

I'm sorry but I disagree.

If all the reply email accounts were left open it would mean there would be a higher chance of someone actually replying and falling for a scam. By closing it down - then, at the very least, it reduces the chances of someone replying to that particular email and being scammed.

Obviously the scammer will continue their work with a new reply account - and we in turn (like the many others who do the same thing) will report the new account and get it closed down also. The process continues. It's far from ideal and is not a complete solution, however, even if it only saves one or two people from falling for a scam, then it's done it's job. With that in mind, it's not completely futile.

As I mentioned previously, we're all here for the same reason - to help reduce the amount of people being scammed - that's all.