Is it possible a baiter has caused the death of a scammer?

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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:37 pm

It's always said here that never do anything you don't feel comfortable with. Personally I'm more then happy to try and cause the untimely demise of a lad but I fully respect those who wouldn't go that far.

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:42 pm

I have one lad I've been baiting on and off since I joined here. My goal is to bait him until he dies of old age. I don't think that makes me a bad person. Wink

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:47 pm

Old No. 7 wrote:

^^^
I think you should have a little red cross flag for that, JoJo. Very Happy

Here's one:

As for the lads, they get about as much sympathy from me as a burglar who offs himself falling down the stairs whist breaking into a house.

Chuck Norris Joined: 11 Jun 2007 Posts: 1369

^ ^ Exactly. I do not give a damn what happens to the scammers. I will save my sympathy for those who truly deserve it--their victims, for example.

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:08 pm

I'm not sure of the purpose of the original question in this thread but I can certainly say that I am not too bothered one way or the other.

I would like to offer a couple of links to clarify points made earlier by others.
* It was the second aa419 flashmob that was dedicated to a victim. That victim was Leslie Fountain from Cambridgeshire, UK, who committed suicide.
SEE NEWS REPORT

* Many of us from Eater who were involved with 419Legal when it was run effectively by the SA police will remember the horrific murder of 419 victim George Makronalli.
SEE NEWS REPORT

There are numerous other examples of the disastrous effects that scammers have had on their victims.
If a scammer has occasioned harm, or death, as a result of a scam bait, I remain unmoved.

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:07 pm

I should not, but I�ll ventilate my opinion one more time with a small example and then leave up it to the rest to make a big mess of it. Wink

A repeatedly convicted drunk driver hits another vehicle while driving drunk again and kills 4 occupants and three other occupants are mutilated/handicapped for life.
The angry onlookers decide to kill him and they kill him on the spot. Right or wrong?

Okay they didn�t kill him, so seven months later (he is just out of prison) I see him driving and he seems drunk again. So with my truck and trailer I push him of the road straight into a ravine.
Right or wrong?

That doesn�t mean that I care what happens to that drunk, if he lives or dies, but is that my job or even my right to decide that?

I always thought, that a long time ago, we had instituted a three pronged justice system for that problem so we can outlaw public �justice� and give even the suspect certain rights? What happened to that?

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:32 pm

^^^ Legal justice can only be applied in certain circumstances and the lads are immune to it.

I would therefore have no problem with applying public justice as you call it and killing one on the spot.

After all - you gotta have justice in one form or another don't you?

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:45 pm

bill2,
We've been here many times before on Eater, as you well know. Wink

The 'suspects' to whom you refer do have rights; but they waive certain of them when they become confirmed scammers.
You can argue the case for the defence of scammers and I'll argue the case for the prosecution (or persecution) until the cows come home.

I do however believe that this thread has very little merit because, as I think we all know, we do not set out to cause the death of any scammer. I've not known of any such instance in my, lengthy, experience.
The thread is just one of many similar ones on the same subject started over the years that goes round in circles, causes rifts, debates all sorts of ethics and then either gets locked or deleted.

I linked to two cases above where victims have come to serious harm. There are many more similar instances.
I have yet to hear of anything similar happening to a 419 scammer.

If we refer back to the opening title of this thread:

Quote:

Is it possible a baiter has caused the death of a scammer?

then the answer is probably 'yes, it is possible'; and 'no, we have no knowledge of that happening'.
As I said above, the question has no merit. It will only cause pointless debate and speculation.

*** BANNED *** Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 2021

Look who the hard core baiters are, they are the guys that have been here doing this a while and have seen the real damage caused by 419. They never joined as hard core but the longer they stay the harder they get.
I personally wouldn't lose any sleep if one of my baits went fatally "wrong".

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:14 am

I have a friend (baiter friend) who has been working a lad who claims that he has been arrested for owning money due to a bait AND he claims his life is at risk too.

What does he want? Money.

Would I plan a lad's death...? NO.

Would he do things that got himself into such hot water that someone "took him out"...? Dunno, you'll have to ask the lad that.

Would I celebrate...? Not that a human's life was ended, but that a scammer retired. Yup.

Edited because I missed the E

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:58 am

Very topical debate for me at the moment.

The lad that I currently have on safari in Liberia reckons that if he borrowed any money from people in Monrovia to extend his safari, and could not pay them back on arrival in Sierra Leone, then he would be a dead man, because he was dealing with "hard" men.

Knowing that this region of Africa is awash with civil war, bandits and rebels, it could quite possibly be the truth from safari lad.

It did trouble me that I was knowingly sending this mugu into Sierra Leone accompanied by a man that might kill him if it was a wild goose chase.

Then 10 minutes later I Emailed mugu, begging him to come to meet me in Sierra Leone.... Twisted Evil

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:04 am

Gee.. my lad walked into an empty ocean cargo container on Tin Can Island looking for a woman who wasn't even on that continent. He could have been closed in there!! And was I worried.. nope. It was his choice to walk in there.

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:11 am

I don't want to be presumptuous about YW's and jojo's intentions, but I certainly was hoping that our lad currently safaried in Chad would end up duct taped into a ball and taken to places unknown to have unknown things happen to him, never to be heard from again. The one thing I was hoping for would be that he make it to Darfur first though. That way we can listen to him complain for at least a few more weeks about how bad his life sucks before he falls off the map.

Then again, I hate thieves with a passion.

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:26 am

I think all of us have our own ethics going into this, and I think they probably also change the longer you're doing it. But, just for discussion's sake, here's mine.

If anyone I was baiting actually died, I would be gutted. And personally, I would stay away from anything that made me feel like I would be responsible for the demise if it were to occur.

In other words, if the guy doesn't get money from me, and then has to "answer" for that to his higher-ups, then I don't really feel responsible. I still wouldn't be happy about the death, but I wouldn't feel sick about myself the way I would if I told him to prove his devotion to the church by eating mistletoe.

I think people have to follow their own consciences.

In my experience, less than 10% of people are actually full-blown nasty people who know they're nasty. The rest are either good, or have found some way to rationalise what they're doing. Americans are richer than we are, I'm only applying to people's greed, blah blah blah. They rationalise their behaviour, and we rationalise ours. Murder is wrong even if you're only killing nasty people.

My parents were pretty wrong about a whole lot of things, but the two things I took from them that I still believe are this:

1. From my mom: there are things that are wrong for individuals that are not wrong for a society/governing agency. This would include putting people to death for their crimes.

2. From my dad: when you hate and inflict pain, you become the thing you hate. All right, so he was a Holocaust survivor who somehow managed to not hate the Germans, and when given the chance to retaliate, he didn't take it. So I figured, I didn't really have much right to turn around to him and tell him that in MY case I was justified. He kind of had the trump card.

Mind you, for all of that, my parents were better people than I am. If I'd ever met one of the people who'd hurt my dad, I can't say I would have just walked away.

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:10 am

Spear N. Magichelmet wrote:

I think all of us have our own ethics going into this, and I think they probably also change the longer you're doing it.

Quite correct. As in any other field, one's perceptions and attitudes tend to change with knowledge and experience. That said, everyone still has their own personal compass, which is why the rule is to never do something you are uncomfortable with as regards the lads.

Quote:

If anyone I was baiting actually died, I would be gutted. And personally, I would stay away from anything that made me feel like I would be responsible for the demise if it were to occur

A couple of points. First off, how would you know? If you get an email saying your lad bit the big one, it would likely be another lad trying to pull your strings. Rule #1: lads lie. That said, what if your lad got hit by a bus crossing the street to get to the WU with your fake MTCN? Is that your fault? I think not, but that is my opinion.

Quote:

I think people have to follow their own consciences.

Exactly

Quote:

In my experience, less than 10% of people are actually full-blown nasty people who know they're nasty. The rest are either good, or have found some way to rationalise what they're doing. Americans are richer than we are, I'm only applying to people's greed, blah blah blah. They rationalise their behaviour, and we rationalise ours. Murder is wrong even if you're only killing nasty people.

Okies, now we have an issue. Where is the murder? Can you REALLY commit murder via email? No. The scammer has every chance to say "HELL NO" to anything we suggest, and thousands do just that, as any high profile baiter will tell you. We hold no gun to their head at any time, and they are free to dump us at any time.

Quote:

1. From my mom: there are things that are wrong for individuals that are not wrong for a society/governing agency. This would include putting people to death for their crimes.

See above. You need to understand that the lads baited here are very free to walk away at any time. With a simple "fuck you" email, they are gone. I really don't see the issue here.

Kudos to your Dad for his attitude, BTW, and respect.

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:14 pm

Personally I think there should be an extra icon if you get the Lad to 'off himself' doing something hilariously stupid - thought that's probably what's happened, if it ever has, before.

My African Killer Bee Lad wimped out on me Sad

Quote:

..........the said that it is very hard for the to do it. that the bees is very bad to put sign and snap.sir there noting i can do.

Time to use my powers of persuasion on him. Very Happy

I only use the same tactics they use on innocent victims. If I had any worries about the effect on the scammer I would barely be capable of baiting. The people we bait are not starving refugees you see on TV. Take that image out of your mind. These are criminals with the money to spend in internet cafes, drinking and having fun trying to get lucky at other peoples expense. In local terms they are 'middle class' and really do consider that they are businessmen.

Many have home pc's and cars. My first Lad sent me pictures of himself in his car after the refugee claim failed and he wanted to impress me, then told me about his apartment.

I won't criticise anyone for not doing what I do, that's their freedom of choice, but most people's view changes, the more they see and hear - mine did.

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:13 pm

I work for a very large wireless company here in the US and I see fraud all the time, both by employees and customers. They convince themselves that what they are doing is justified. I am actually watching a case right now and have been speaking with one of our fraud management people who used to be a federal agent. When I told him about scambaiting and 419, he told me how he used to see these cases and how evil some of these mugus are.

In Nigeria, they are taught from a very young age that Americans, and most Westerners in general, are immoral and greedy, so that taking money from them is justified and even to be applauded.

He also mentioned their terrible grammar and spelling but said that they used to get a kick out of reading the really bad letters.

Anyhow, everyone's feelings and ethics may vary. My personal feeling is I would possibly have as much regret at the accidental death of a mugu as I would have for anyone else that accidentally kicked the bucket in the commission of a crime. It is their choice ultimately.

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:56 am

PDS and I are trying to find out what happened to Ed.

(Maybe he committed suicide?) He hit bottom not long ago.

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:21 am

sir scam alot wrote:

I am actually watching a case right now

Sir Scam Alot, you aren't watching ME are you? Shocked

Just Kidding, I have to live up to my Site ID... Laughing

Edited because I didn't Preview first. Embarassed

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:59 am

Simba wrote:

The lad that I currently have on safari in Liberia reckons that if he borrowed any money from people in Monrovia to extend his safari, and could not pay them back on arrival in Sierra Leone, then he would be a dead man, because he was dealing with "hard" men.

Excellent example of the choices a lad may willingly make to chase his pot of gold.

Eliza_Doolittle wrote:

(Maybe he committed suicide?) He hit bottom not long ago.

That would be sad, but only because I would miss the entertainment.

Lads choose a life of crime. Crime can be a risky business. Tough for them.

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:44 am

Oh good! Another ethics debate! Very Happy

My thoughts? The lads knowingly take risks in the commissioning of their crimes - however more so the risk of imprisonment, than anything else.

If one of them happens to push the limits a bit too far and meets his/her maker in the process, well I tend to go along with the "Karma" theory. Might even save the justice system some resources and hopefully discourage others in his/her circle of acquaintances from trying the same thing.

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:56 am

Dr Doolittle wrote:

PDS and I are trying to find out what happened to Ed.

Well, I for one would miss Ed. I hate to say this, but he was relatively benign, incompetent and seemingly blessed, hence the trip to Singapore, etc. SO, hopefully, he didn't off himself, but came to some sort of "pot scamming" lifestyle. I find it hard to believe he was very good at it....

However, any of the successful lads (I know, hair splitting here) that I have baited, Hendick, Joseph Twum@$si [email protected], Dr R2y, if they ended up being mashed bu a bus while on safari, I could handle that.

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:33 pm

I was discussing this post with my elderly mother this morning (expecting the usual "What a terrible thing to say"

Her reply amazed me, all she said was "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword"

Sums it up for me really.

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:28 pm

Professor So And So wrote:

I don't want to be presumptuous about YW's and jojo's intentions, but I certainly was hoping that our lad currently safaried in Chad would end up duct taped into a ball and taken to places unknown to have unknown things happen to him, never to be heard from again.

You don't send a lad to Chad/Darfur with good intentions as far as I am concerned. Feel free to speak for both of us, because that was our intentions.

These lads are doing things of their own free will... if they head to the edge of some cliff to steal money from a minister, can you really feel bad about it? It's up to each individual I guess. I would never personally kill a lad. But I will send him on dangerous adventures with the chance that he offs himself.

Elite Baiter Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 1043

GomerPyle wrote:

Personally I think there should be an extra icon if you get the Lad to 'off himself' doing something hilariously stupid - thought that's probably what's happened, if it ever has, before.

I think it should be a darwin award fish.

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