Rethinking my position on scambaiting

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Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

Nobody has done anything wrong yet, and this thread hasn't crossed the line, nor is it offensive.

As a matter of fact, everyone has been well behaved and polite.

Rest assured that once somebody does cross the line, the Jackboots of Oppression will step in. We live for that.

419Eater is my life Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 377

@ Jedi

To be honest, there isnt much I can say that hasnt been said before, it would be entirely up to you if you decide to bait or not and if you do, you dont have to go to the lengths some of the more extreme baiters go to as long as you keep the lads busy with rubbish emails and endless questions then every little helps!

Also, I'm not sure on your computer skills but on top of the ideas suggested above maybe you could help us fight the fight by setting up a MTCN.s3cur3 style site in order to keep the lads busy! Or even helping with a drop box or something. Helping us to keep the lads busy without actually doing the baiting yourself?

Any good at making up forms? Thats something else thats always handy!

Just a few ideas for you.

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:31 pm

@TSNerd: I hope no one closes this thread down. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything of the sort.
@Jojobean: Yes, I have been wrestling over whether I should ask my dad about it. I just wonder what he'd say if he knows I read through some of his mail (being the letter). I mean, I know I'm 18 years old, but I don't want to anger my dad in that way. However, I can see where you guys are coming from about finding out. For all I know, he may still be sending money to the scammer.
Lol...as a future Marine, I aren't very courageous, am I? Very Happy

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:38 pm

Yeah, your dad might be mad at you. But remind him of all of the times he invaded your privacy for your own good. And he'll get over it. He might be mad at first. But so what. If it saves him from getting scammed again, then it's worth it. Talk to him though.

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:46 pm

@Jojobean: That's a good point. Like I stated in the beginning, I am not 100% sure he was scammed. I just have a strong suspicion and, due to the way he acted/what he said that day in the car, I have a strong feeling he was.
And to those who offered to scambait the scammer: I don't know if my dad still has the letter or not. I don't even remember if the scammer put an email address with it. To be honest, I don't want to go snooping in my dad's things looking to see if he still has the letter or not. If I muster the courage to talk to him, I'll ask and see if it is still in his possession.

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:30 pm

Be brave - or you could talk about it as 'something you discovered on the internet and want his (adult/fatherly/wise/spiritual) guidance on' - the key to talking with your father from the sounds of it will be doing everything you can to enable him to make the connection for himself. This was he won't feel 'threatened' - he probably knows something's up, but is scared of admitting it to himself too, so coming at it headfirst may panic him. Maybe you're 'concerned about a friend' (and one day when he realises he was the friend you were concerned about, you've got the potential for one of those hollywood father-son moments right there Wink

).

Good luck however you approach it - being a Marine takes a lot of courage, but it's nothing compared to talking to relations and people who know us well, I'm not surprised you're anxious!

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:39 pm

Jedi_Night wrote:

... I noticed a letter on his lampstand ... My dad wasn't home, so I took it out and looked at it. ...

Err, speaking of sin. How does lying to a thief qualify as sin, but reading other people's mail doesn't? Confused

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

Edit: removed

Western Union · Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:25 pm

Please keep this thread civil and on topic.

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

Methinks the line has already been crossed.

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:42 pm

I'm a Christian, and I bait scammers to waste their time and prevent them from scamming innocent people out of their money. There are a lot of Christian law enforcement officers who pretend to be people they aren't in undercover situations in order to stop criminals from doing harm to (more) innocent people. I see no difference.

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

Quote:

There are a lot of Christian law enforcement officers who pretend to be people they aren't in undercover situations in order to stop criminals from doing harm to (more) innocent people.

Now this is getting silly.

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:26 pm

I love Jesus, but I drink a little bit. Very Happy

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

My point exactly. Rolling Eyes

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:52 pm

For the most part I don't think this is getting rediculous. No one has said the OP is a idiot for being Christian, or that Christianity is the way to go and if you are not Christian you are an idiot... that would be crossing the line. NOTE: I am not advocating either of those positions.

What we are doing is exploring the ethics of scambaiting. While it does get talked about to death sometimes here, it is healthy to keep doing it. If we are to say we are on the side of right we need to continue to examine our methods. At some point they WOULD cross the line and then we would be no better than those we fight.

As for the OP, it is a struggle for him. He has a certain world view point. Regardless of if you or I agree with it, it is his view point, and it is valid to him. His perception is his reality.

I don't know why he would choose to post at a site dedicated to something he says he cannot participate in, but that is again his choice.

As for where he should go with this, as previously stated there are a lot of avenues that he can go down to keep with his valid personal beliefs AND take on his little corner of the scam world.

Talking to his father would be the first step. Assuming his father is safe then OP can go forward and decide how he wants to fight the good fight.

NOTE this post is not meant as a slam on anyone that has posted in this thread. I think it is a topic that could easily devolve into a religious flame war and then I would be the first to ask a mod to lock it. I am happy the members here on eater who chose to post have not gone in that direction.

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:46 am

@Kleindoofy: I see what you are saying. I don't think it was right of me to look at my dad's mail. However, given what it was, I am glad I did. But anyway, you are correct in your post, though.
@Moderators: I am not trying to start a "flame war" or something. I asked a question and told what has happened to my dad (or, rather, what I SUSPECT has happened, as I do not know for certain).

Anyway, thanks to everyone again for their responses. I appreciate them all. Smile

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:03 am

Jedi: Constantly review your beliefs and why you believe them. If they have value your review will only strengthen them. If they do not have value, well you want to learn that too!

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:11 pm

I know i am only new here and have not posted much in the threads, but i have to be honest and say this is starting to sound a lil sus ,Chalk it up to gut instincts maybe.

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:21 pm

I thank everyone here for their messages. I have read each one, and many of them made me do alot of thinking.
But, after much praying and thinking, I have come to the conclusion that I NEED to scambait. One of the main reasons is because I was reading about the 419 Scam problem online, and I constantly came across websites where reporters/journalists ask police why they don't do anything, and the police simply respond, "We don't have the manpower" or "it's not an important enough crime". I don't see how it's NOT an "important enough crime". People being robbed in a 419 Scam is the same thing as a theif breaking into a house. The only difference is the police seem to believe that one is more important than the other (NOTE: I am not ranting against police; my uncle was a police officer).
My point is this: based on what I have read, scambaiters are actually very much needed. Granted, it may be a "drop in the ocean", as some have put it, but I just ask myself what would happen if there were no scambaiters. In my opinion, if there were no scambaiters, there would be more scammers. I do believe in my heart that just the simple fact that there are scambaiters out there have scared some would-be scammers away (or it has made scammers stop their activities in the fear of coming across a scambaiter).

Sorry if I have gone on, I just really believe it's not fair that scammers are "allowed" to go and scam without consequences since they know they will probably never be arrested. Someone (even if it is a scambaiter) has to be there to ATTEMPT to stop them.
What has really changed me as well is the fact that, by God's grace, I will be a US Marine late this year. Whilst I do not WANT to, I may be called to fight terrorists to protect my country, and if called, I will answer that call. War is, sadly, at times necessary to protect the freedoms we love (such as my freedom to simply worship God each week). The same thing applies to scambaiting. Someone needs to be here to stop these guys.
So count me in.

Moderator Joined: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 14513

@Jedi

Sorry to hear about someone close to you getting scammed.

Personally, I'm a Christian and I am comfortable with scambaiting. As part of my "day job" I also have been involved in computer task forces aimed at getting sexual predators that involve a great deal of deception. I've been comfortable with that as well. Let your heart guide what you think is and is not appropriate for you.

As several others have said, there are lots of things you can do to fight 419 fraud that don't involve lying. These guys frequently target churches and play on the faith of people. Maybe you can provide some education and raise awareness among others about this type of scam.

Also, you can get some decent catcher accounts going and post some of the more promising letters in the surplus letter forum.

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:34 am

Fresh scam mail in today

For those who don't know how scammers operate. The charity is a real one. I have indicated where the mail is from by making it bold and red. It isn't from the charity though the scammer has left a real charity addie at the bottom for that touch of authenticity.

I haven't come across a Lad who isn't deeply religious. Unfortunately that doesn't stop them masquerading as charities, ruining the reputations of real charities and stealing their money.

Baiters have ethics and discuss them - scammers don't.

Quote:

from Cash Grant Program Coordinator <[email protected]>
to Bertram Wooster <[email protected]>,
date Jan 10, 2008 1:03 AM
subject ATTENTION BENEFACTOR
mailed-by hotmail.com

hide details 1:03 AM (16 minutes ago)

Reply

Images are not displayed.
Display images below - Always display images from [email protected]

Catholic Charities of Northwest Florida
Providing Help, Creating Hope, Serving All.
TRANSACTION FILE CODE:GRTB1973876

ATTENTION BENEFACTOR

I acknowledge the receipt of your mail. As a beneficiary to the CATHOLIC CHARITIES grants award ,was founded since 1917,you might be wondering how you where chosen to be as a benefactor what is this grant all about?, well I will take my time to explain certain things to you.These grants are issued every year around the world in accordance with the objective of the CATHOLIC CHARITIES as stated by the rulings counsel,which is to ensure the continuous freedom of man and to enhance mans living conditions.

To anyone in need by providing compassionate, competent and professional services that strengthen and support individuals, families and communities based on the value and dignity of human life, the CATHOLIC CHARITIES FOUNDATION is giving out a donation of Two million,Five Hundred thousand American Dollars each to 4 lucky benefactors. These specific Donations/Grants will be awarded to 4 lucky international benefactors worldwide; in different categories for providing business development and enhancement of educational plans. At least 15% of the awarded funds should be used by you to develop a part of your environment. This is to serve as a measure of universal development strategy,in order to move the funds out and dispatched it to charity organizations, so we resulted to putting fate to test and making a random contact selection

Based on the random selection exercise of internet websites,web email directory and millions of supermarket cash invoices worldwide,this email address...... [email protected] was selected from and decided to introduce our plight in this.We being commune acting with you at this moment as the legitimate bearer/owner of the selected email address, with regards to your volunteering assistance. And I would not have any cause to do otherwise, except you state your intention to withdraw your assistance. you were selected along with 4 other benefactors to receive the award sum of $2.5 million dollars(Two million,five hundred thousand dollars) as charity donations/aid from the CATHOLIC CHARITIES , in accordance with the enabling act of the CATHOLIC ARCHDIOCESE. (Note that beneficiaries email addresses were selected randomly from over 1,000,000 internet websites or a shop's cash invoice around your area in which you might have purchased something from).

Catholic Charities Organization is the largest private, not-for-profit social service agency, annually assisting more than 870,000 families and individuals in Cook and Lake counties without regard to religious, national, racial, ethnic or economic background.The Foundation has pledged $5.5 million to sponsor a career center, counseling and job training services, ongoing operations and a garden for homeless veterans

Different individuals from different works of life as offered these Grant,which sole aim is for the betterment of mans existence through your own initiatives. Most individuals will not be the ones to find a cure for cancer, or eliminate poverty, or help create world peace, but every man and woman and child can do something to help others and to make things a little better.

The Catholic Charities, is deeply involved with helping people, it spends more every day around the World helping orphans in orphanage/ motherless homes.The Catholic Charities have donated some money to orphans in Sudan, South Africa, Cameroon,Brazil, Spain, Austria, Germany and some Asian countries just to make life a little easier and the great majority of that help goes to people, without regard to religious, national, racial, ethnic or economic background.

The Catholic Charities can also accepts donations from any organization volunteering to help fulfill the Church's role in the mission of charity to anyone in need by providing compassionate, competent and professional services that strengthen and support individuals, families and communities based on the value and dignity of human life.

I need you to give me your words that you will be very honest and straight forward with me when the cash prize gets to you, So long as you can execute this transaction successfully and assist to dispatch 15% of the fund to charity organizations.I strongly advice that you keep this to yourself to avoid double claims, as this our Catholic Mission is being sponsored by the WORLD BANK for United Nation's Children's Funds (UNICEF).

You are to always indicate your transaction file code in any responding mail to me in order to reply you back as we do have similar mails claiming to be catholic charity beneficiary i advice you to keep this to yourself any double claims and we fine out that the real benefacticiary is the informat the grant will be automatically disqualify.

Get back to me as soon as you receive this email.

Once again congratulations.

Yours truly,

Honorable Richard Bates
Secretary and Treasurer
Cash Grant Program Coordinator

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WORKING HOURS/DAYS - 24HOURS DAILY DUE TO INTERNATIONAL CLIENTS
Confidential: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. This communication represents the originator's personal views and opinions, which do not necessarily reflect those of the CATHOLIC CHARITIES. If you are not the original recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please immediately notify [email protected]

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:58 pm

@Gomerpyle: I am glad you posted that letter. It's scams like that that have made me change my position on scambaiting. I have come to realized that these guys should not be able to go around scamming people with no fear of consequences. And I know I already said this, but according to what I have seen and read from law enforcement officials, they don't think of this as an "important enough crime" to pursue. So, in the end, it seems we here at 419eater and other scambaiting sites are the only people who care about stopping these scammers.
I just started scambating Tuesday night. I still pray that I am doing what's right in God's eyes.

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:59 pm

Sorry to res an old topic, but I think it's a really good discussion, and hopefully I can contribute to it constructively.

Jedi, you may find it helpful to think about the difference between justice and revenge, especially in a Biblical context.

[potentially controversial] When the Bible says "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth", I don't know that I think that's so much prescriptive as much as I think it's helpful for limiting. It's saying, "If some dude takes your tooth, don't take his head." It's like an old-world way of saying "Let the punishment fit the crime." [/potentially controversial]

I really like this section from the opening of Psalm 72. King Solomon is praying to God to bless him -- not just praying that God would bless him so that King Solomon can selfishly enjoy life, but rather so that King Solomon can look after the poor and bring justice to the oppressed. I suspect that this is a passage that many scam baiters can find encouragement in. Psalm 72:1-4 (paraphrased to indicate authorship):

Psalm 72 wrote:

Give me your justice, O God,
and your righteousness to me!

May I judge your people with righteousness,
and your poor with justice!

Let the mountains bear prosperity for the people,
and the hills, in righteousness!

May I defend the cause of the poor of the people,
give deliverance to the children of the needy,
and crush the oppressor!

Particularly that last stanza is what I think many scam baiters are trying to do when they lead their scammers on safaris that leave them stranded, homeless and penniless. They are trying to crush the oppressors.

Still, we must be careful that we don't get vengeful in our actions. We are seeking justice for those who are oppressed -- we're not out to be bloodthirsty.

Just some thoughts that may or may not be helpful -- I still don't have all of my own opinions worked out on this, but this is some of the stuff rolling around in my head.

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:08 pm

<sits back and waits for the pyrotechnics that is a Mod bomb on a thread necro crime>

Ooohh! ....Aaaaahh! pretty lights in the sky Very Happy

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

14 days doesn't really call for the Jackboots of Oppression.

I don't have any problem with this discussion continuing, if people want to continue it, and so long as it stays in the realm of polite discourse.

Carry on.

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